Thanks, Tune!

Note: You may want to reconsider the "Johnson" sheath discription on that Model 1. These are photos from a fairly recent e-bay auction of the estate of an old Heiser employee:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-4-Randal...=item3f2252be35




Here is the auction text so it's saved for posterity:

4 Randall Knife Sheaths. 1-7,1-8,12-9,15-5 1/2. All Rough Back. New Condition.All are missing a Snap. AND the 15 5 1/2 sheath has torn stitching on the Sharpener Pouch. See Photos. The Story: Came from a Estate of a Leather Worker whom worked at "Heiser Saddle Co."in Denver. It was a great Sale ,Besides Leather,Tools,Heiser Stamps..... There was quite a few Saleman Samples. Included were these Randall Sheaths. You will Notice all are marked with "SAMPLE" in red ink. I was unable to remove ink .Maybe you will be more Successfull or Maybe Black Dye? Which Ever, I hope someone has a use for these Sheaths.

I saw that auction Ron.... Joe and I discussed a bit. It adds more weight to the first "Randall" stamped sheathes being Heisers, not Johnsons.

I have always worked under the assumption that anything stamped "Randall" was a Johnson, but ......

IMO that auction answered one of the most debated questions about the history of Randall Made knives. A watershed event!

Ron and Mitchell

Thank you both to the sheath stamping lesson. I really enjoy learning things like that. Great information.

All of the knives you both displayed are great. Ron that Low S mini 3 is superb.

Here is a pair with a story of some sort....mine is just a guess. The model #2 was made 1955 to 1956 based on the sheath. (narrow stone flap, horizontal keeper strap). The model #1 was very early 1960's. Again, because of the sheath. It's a Johnson, with a horizontal stamp. These were turned vertical very quickly after production began.

Both knives have the name etch "Mac Bowen"

The problem is, black micarta was not available when either of these knives were originally made.

I assume Mac had both of these knives rehandled by the shop between 1965 and 1970. The handles may have been damaged, or maybe he just wanted a matched pair... either way, they are pretty cool.

Here is a case looking at Tune's sheaths that is contrary to what Ron is stating as definitive, and supports Tune's original opinion. Look at the front of the #1 sheath, it has the appearance of a Heiser. Look at the back, not at all. Compared to the #2 sheath, the stitching is completely different (a la Johnson) and obviously done on a different machine. The 'butterfly" is also markedly different than the known Heiser.

While my opinion has morphed about some of these sheaths that are stamped with the RMK logo and that may be Heiser sheaths, no one knows for sure how it came about if true. I have always been told that no sheaths were stamped with a logo at the Randall shop as it remains to this day. So, if in fact some if not all of these sheaths in question are actually Hesier's but stamped with the RMK logo, the only answer would be that Bo sent a stamp out to the "company" that was no longer H.H. Heiser, but a second acquisition of the company in a decade. The question is, did he?

Read more here:

http://www.rmkcollector.com/index.php?cID=265

The bottom line as I have maintained for years, for my collecting purposes if it has a RMK logo stamp, it is a Johnson.

Great work and investigating Joe. You always come up with some interesting info.

Great work and investigating Joe. You always come up with some interesting info.

Joe,

What I alledged as definitive (IMO) is that both Heiser and Johnson produced sheaths stamped with Randall logos. I just don't see how a reasonable person can come to any other conclusion after seeing that auction. In the case of Tune's Model 1 sheath, I just said he may want to reconsider his opinion! The difficult thing moving forward is how to tell the two manufacturers apart. I'm not sold on the somewhat subjective "Johnson" or "non Heiser" attributes you assigned to Tune's Model 1 sheath as it differs from his Model 2 sheath. There were "years" between the time his Model 2 sheath and Model 1 sheaths were made. The horizontal vs. vertical keeper is a good indication of this. There were changes that took place within Heiser over the years that we are all aware of or can reasonable conclude: Changes in ownership, overall quality, personnel, styles, grades of leather, coloration and of course replacement of patterns and sewing machines. It's not going to be as easy as you think.

Ron I agree with all that's been said here and I too believe this auction has given some proof to the stamping issue. It seems Joe on the one hand believes that there were Heisers marked with the Randall Stamp but it seems he wouldn't bet his life on it. I agree. It seems fairly obvious on the one hand but then again.....well maybe not so obvious. It sure is interesting to learn all this.
Joe does some outstanding investigating as you do. There is a great.....great book out there that would be the definitive book on Randall's that you too could collaborate on. I would love to see it.
As for me when I find a sheath like we are talking about it will be one or the other. I mean they did have Randall Stamps at this auction. Bo must have sent them to em. Anyway neat stuff!