Heiser or HKL. IMO impossible to distinguish based on the photos.

Ron the quality doesn't look like Heiser but the Keeper strap has the Heiser placement (Jack). Maybe HKL and the theory about new workers etc could explain the sloppy sheath. I dunno.

Rex -

the thing that strikes me the most is the knife is inserted into the sheath backwards.

Ron -

I am pretty sure what it is. Let's wait for some others to chime in and see what they say.

This certainly looks like either a Heiser or a HKL (I like this "HKL" nom-de-designation instead of using "Heiser-Randall stamp", or "west Ranall stamp," etc...much easier and descriptive) with Randall stamp. It has all the frontal clues but without seeing the back it would be virtually impossible to tell. I probably could tell you what it isn't though. A view of the back with stamp and stitching should be decisive.

Of interest are the brown buttons. In the photo, the button on the hone pocket appears to be almost 10 percent larger diameter than the button on the keeper. I blew it up and carefully measured units - 64 units diameter on the keeper, 69-70 units diameter on hone pocket. However, the difference might be camera angle perspective. If the diameter is indeed different, we have some new data to consider.

I would like to insert a thought here. Stockman made some sheaths about late 59-mid 60 or so, as did several other leather workers in the area from time to time (Gaddis). But, Stockman was primarily in business as a maker of fine harness and saddlery for the trotting and horsy set. My sister is a current card-carrying member of the central-florida horsy set. I assure you all that the poor-workmanship and quality that are commonly attributed to Stockman would not be tolerated by the group of central Florida customers that use horse tack. Something to consider.

Rex

That is good stuff and documented too. I've saved in in my "documented" files. Too bad we don't have a picture of the back of the sheath. The last documented knife with a Heiser stamp on the sheath I've found is in 1959. However both were combat models 1 or 14 sold by dealers.. therefore the knives could have been for sale/on display for some time. That is one reason I proposed early 1959 as the date for the switch to use of the Randall stamp.

I'm pretty sure sometime after publishing my findings, I ran accross a model-1 on line somewhere, documented shipped in late 1960 or even '61 (memory) with a Heiser stamped sheath. But, I cannot find that file now. If this mamory is accurate, then some Heiser-stamped sheaths were still being shipped when the Randall stamp had become dominant. However, that kind of overlap would be expected to occur on less popular models, which the combat blades were in '59-'61.

Buttons are the same. The pouch flap stone is closer to the lens, plus with the plastic, you can get some deformity from installation.

Frontal clues. Please expound.

Com'on Joe. We shouldn't have to laboriously recreate all the clues to sheath differentiation that have been completely explained both in this line and in the original work elsewere. Just for this time, the four main clues visual clues that differentiate "Heiser-made (either Heiser-stamped or HLK-Randall stamped) are as follows:

1. Front - position of the keeper snap in center of sheath = Heiser. Postion of keeper snap on edge of sheat = Johnson.
2. Front - deep tooling impression with ridge adjacent to stiching = Heiser.
3. Back - no stamp, horizontal Randall stamp, or West-facing Randall stamp = Heiser. East-facing Randall stamp = Johnson.
4. Back: butterfly stitching, exagerated heart shape = Heiser. Deeper single or double line penetration into "heart" = Johnson. Shallower heart shape = "Stockman."

Beside, we are do-looping. Much of this game has already been played when Gary Clinton posted these sheaths front only ... and then followed up with the backs.. proving how hard it was to differentiate Heiser-stamp, HLK w.Randall stamp, or "Stockman" for that matter. Furthermore, these pictures he posted led to the whole 100 printed-out pages of analyses that ultimately identified the stamp-orientation ddifference. Why? ... because he had included a model-1 ebony pinned-handle knife in this group that was similar to my knife, "The Magic Randall" and comparison of three ebony-handled model 1s found the key. See these pictures previously posted long ago.



Joe, pardon me, but are we talking from the same data base? Questions are good, but having to recreate the original data for every question is a waste of time. If you have a secret about that sheath, please post it with your conclusions. It can be ambush-debate tactics to ask everyone else to quantify their opinions ... but fail to post your own thoughts with a complete analysis including back-up documentation. It does not help the process in my opinion.

in those photos I want to point out some key things you may be discounting or don't see. As a caveat, don't have sheaths in hand so going by photos and can't enlarge with any clarity.

1)The RMK marked sheaths have different stitching than the Heiser marked sheaths particularly second from left. One to right seems more the similar as HHH marked sheaths.
2)The stone pouch flap lacks the tooled edge common on Heiser marked sheaths
3)The "butterfly" is different, with the tell-tale extra holes that were so common on Johnson sheaths
4)The front stitching appears to lack the "tooled" edge of the Heiser marked sheaths
5)The shape of the two RMK marked sheaths is a bit different than the HHH stamped sheaths and most noticeable in the one second from left
6)The leather of the two RMK marked sheaths appears different from front and back views.
7)The backstitching at the throat of Johnson's always seemed a bit cruder than on Heiser products.

Now without having in hand, a true assessment is difficult but some of these points made are valid. Obviously none of the sheaths from the same maker are going to be 100% exact to the next one, but there is a reason for differences beyond "normal" variations during production.

to your points:

1)Early JBB had center position. Change was made to improve holding power of "anemic" BB
2)true, why I brought it up about the two RMK stamped sheaths
3)I do not believe every HKL RMK stamp was "west facing". Perhaps the vast majority, but not all.
4)More or less but look at the two RMK sheaths relative to what you say in this point

Here are two more photos to help with the assessment of the sheath in question:

All of above... concur.

New photos = additional clues. Type 2 stamp on blade, possibly 1957 (?) to sometime in 1965 (type 1 continued into early '66). Choll=? not really qualified to address ... looks like an unusually right-angle type which was apparently short-lived very early '60s, but that opinion is base completely secondary scholorship. Bo could help answer. White print on stone, if original, would bring '62-'63 or so into play. Stone-swapping is an issue even more than sheath-swapping.

My guess now would be about 1962 HLK with west facing Randall-made sheath stamp. HOWEVER ... we should keep in mind that during this time period the Model 1 sheaths had the longest overlap of supply from Heiser than any other model.

Brown button HLK model 1 sheaths were still being shipped when most other models were being sheathed and shipped in baby dots. This is pretty well documented.

the choil is most definitely at the cusp of the change to the new grind. This change somewhat coincided with the change in sheathmakers. The white print stone was used from around 62 up through 66 or so. I highly doubt this package has been messed with.



I have never heard this about the #1 sheaths before. What is your source on which you base your statement(s)?

Ahhhhh... grasshopper... the question is for the muses.

Nahhh... remember I did all the laborious collection of data about the sheath stamps. I have a data base that is pretty huge, so big I forget where some things are.

From my previous study, IT IS MY IMPRESSION that the model 1 apparently had the largest supply of Heiser sheaths in the bins when the switch from HLK to Johnson occurred. Thus the supply of Heisers for model 1s seemed to have lasted longer into the '60s, and were being shipped even after the switch over to baby dots on other models. However, it may be all an impression, not supportable by a hard look.

If I remember correctly, the "proof" involved looking at the sheaths delivered with SS knives of different models. I noticed that ... say ... model 2s and 3s with an SS were being delivered in baby dots when some model 1 SS knives were still being shipped in brown button HLKs. or something along that line.

I tried to picture how the operation ran. My picture was ... when a knife was finished, someone took it to the sheath bin, tried a few sheaths until one was found that fit resonably well. He then installed the keeper snap, boxed and labeled it ... zoom ... out the door. It would be reasonable to have sheath model overlap if there were a large supply of sheaths for a particuler model on hand, and more coming in. I seem to remember that model 2 HLK sheaths seemed to be in especially short of supply, switch over to Johnson progressed through all varients or something ... whatever ...