Brian,

These old eyes can't notice any difference. Bo would have tooled up only one source and supplied the brown buttons to both Heiser and Johnson. Because of the set up cost, there would have been a minimum order quantity, and that would have been a large number (Gaddis states that minimum order quantity from the baby dot fastener guy was 100K). A difference in color of the snaps would only have occurred in different batches or runs. The chances that a new batch came in about the same time that Johnson arrrived on the scene is pretty slim. Even if this was the case, Bo would have used all of this inventory before he transitioned to the baby dots and the numbers during that timeframe don't support this. Notwithstanding, Hunt seemed to notice a difference. In his book "Randall Fighting Knives in Wartime" on page 181, he states "Johnson Brown buttons appear to be lighter in color than the ones that we see on Heiser or Moore sheaths". However, his understanding at that time was that all brown button sheaths with Randall logos were made by Johnson.

Gary,

If we use your data points from 1960 to assume Heiser started using the Randall stamp at that time, and the following sequence of events: Gary "discovers" Johnson in the spring / summer of 1962, it takes Johnson a minimum of 6 months to come up to speed and baby dots being introduced in late '62 or early '63, the "vast majority" of brown button sheaths with Randall logos were produced by Heiser.

Best,

Seems an appropriate spot to jump back on...round about a hundred years ago I was sitting chewing the fat with Rhett -talking vintage Randall's and such. The subject of a particular sheath came up. The sheath in question had the Randall stamp and for all intents & purposes appeared to be an early MJ sheath. However, close inspection (is there any other) revealed some interesting period differences. Once noted, hard to not see.

It was determined, by all present, that the sheath was made by one Clayton Howard. That the Randall's located a local (?) leather worker in the Orlando area prior to or concurrent with, MJ is difficult to ascertain. Howard was from Michigan (if memory serves), home of another beloved and a location not strange to Bo. Whether Howard migrated to Orlando due to the Harness industry or produced the sheaths up north may be lost in the detritus of time. The sheaths were high quality, had particular attributes and were stamped with the Randall stamp.

I contend, the sheaths ya'll are attributing to Heiser, due to the quality of workmanship, are in fact, sheaths made by Clayton Howard. It is also my contention that when the Randall's located a solid, local maker -their needs were met and came the end of the brief relationship with Howard.

Recon there's a bit more to it but that should be enough scent to get ya'll on the trail. Happy hunting!

Really, a heretofore unknown Randall sheath supplier and we get a scavenger hunt?

Brian,

I looked at several of mine in sunlight and could not determine a color difference beyond a little lighter or darker. I don't know what effect UV would have over 50-60 years, but I am sure it's something.

Lol.....I guess so Ron.....crack can be bad!

Great supposition and theory, but unfortunately it is not true. The elements of your post highlighted in red above are the open ended portions that require further clarification. That is of course if you want your participation taken seriously.

The sheaths in question are in fact most probably Heiser-Keyston-Lichtenberger sheaths. There is NO other sheath maker of merit during Bo's search for a local sheath maker and prior to the participation of Maurice Johnson.

I think some folks are of the opinion that Bo was out beating the streets every day in his "search". I do not think that is the case and it was more of an informal undertaking with several folks submitting samples over a period of time. You have to remember, it is not enough to have the skill alone to make the sheaths, but to also have the capability to make the quantities required and the desire to do so.

While we all loved Rhett, he was a knife purveyor, not a Randall historian. He would acknowledge that without hesitation.

Pictures - Pictures - Pictures
Show us something to back up your statements.

It should also be noted that the harness maker, across the street from the "Holiday House" restaurant (which was on the harness track grounds in Orlando) was indeed, Stockman. We all know the quality of those sheaths. While good, they were certainly not great. This is no serious critic of Stockman. He was in the harness and tack business and I am sure his sheaths were not his #1 priority. I have not heard of any other harness maker or leather shop making product in the Orlando area.
For what it's worth, Capt. Chris

My observations on this issue:

1, I have never heard of Clayton Howard and would need some serious proof before I started to think that he was a sheath supplier to Randall.
2, I don't see a difference in the button color between Johnson and Heiser. I once thought the same but after looking at obvious Heisers or Johnsons I can see both dark and light from each maker.
3, Personally, I think Heiser may have made a small amount of Randall stamped brown buttons but I also think Johnson made the majority. Perhaps the date for Johnson needs to be looked at more.... Joe or Ron: Can you guys think of another way to get more info on this?

Gary

Gary,

First, I am glad to hear you have not heard of Clayton Howard....I thought I had missed the memo on that one.

Are you saying Johnson was on the scene earlier than the 61-62 estimates?