Good photo Art......there is a clear difference in the color between the brown buttons on the Heiser sheaths as opposed to the Johnson's. The Johnson's are a little lighter and not as red.

Joe,

Over the last 10 years I've seen you do a lot of good in the community by educating collectors on Randall history and dating knives, but you have your head stuck in the sand on this one. There's been a preponderance of evidence presented as who made these sheaths that even a newbie can grasp, yet you continue to throw smoke and clutch at straws. One can speculate on the reasons why, but IMO none of them are in the interest of the community or worthy of your reputation.

In response to your smoke:



1. Once you throw in "when they were stamped", it then becomes easy to say the question may never be settled with 100% certainty.
2. The currect evidence does not point to what "we" have been thinking for some time. What we (You in particular) have been thinking for some time is that Johnson got involved earlier than Gary's recollection.




The singularly most important question is "who made these early sheaths" (~1960 through ~ mid 1962), and that has been answered with hard evidence. The hard evidence also strongly supports a logical scenario that after Heiser (finally) agreed to use a Randall stamp in the late 50's or early 60's, Bo sent them one and then sent Johnson a duplicate stamp when he was ready to produce. It was as simple as that. The rest of your questions are not germain to the crux of the issue.



There has not been just one or even just two distinct differences pointed out. There have been three:

1. Stamp orientation.
2. Keeper strap placement
3. The tooled edge.

How many do you want?



Those two sheaths you posted a photo of are poster children for "The Heiser-Johnson brown button grand unification theory"!: All three of the differences are in evidence.



I think you're on your own on this one, Joe. I can only hope that some day you give up the ghost and align with reality for the good of the community and the the history of Randall Made knives.

Best,

Art,

I don't know you, but your observation that the tooled groove and stitching are always hand-in-hand and the stitching machine may be responsible for this is brilliant. Great contribution!

Best,

Wow Ron, was not expecting that at all. Nevertheless, I will put it to you this way and as I have stated in this thread and the article on my site that is linked in this thread, I have never said Heiser did not make the sheaths, and in fact am aligned with what the 'preponderance" of evidence suggests. I even called it in print BEFORE you or anyone else jumped on the bandwagon. It wasn't until the sample sheath auction that you guys jumped on and made an issue of it.

All I have said and for those that have actually read my posts to include the newbie and the experienced collector alike, is that I would like to have some hard proof which up to this point has been unobtanium.

That being said, do YOU have any communication between Bo and the stamp maker? Do YOU have any communication between Bo and Heiser? Do YOU have an communication between Bo and Maurice Johnson? Do YOU have any hard evidence that states when or where sheaths were stamped?

I didn't think so.



No, you are incorrect. Bob H. and myself ("we") had numerous conversations (you were not privy to and I believe beginning before you were collecting) about this many years ago dating back to the late 90's. Although we had our thoughts that it would be improbable that Johnson could make an exact duplicate of a Heiser based on several factors , we (meaning Bob and myself) decided it was easier to give a RMK stamped sheath the nod to Maurice Johnson. It was as simple as that.




Supposition at best yet I am clutching at straws? YOU nor I nor anyone else knows this. Period. All you have said has not answered any of the questions that are "not germain to the crux of the issue". Well, they are exactly that, they are the issue.

IF, and that is a BIG IF, you can answer even one of the questions presented with hard proof, I am all ears.

Perhaps the best way to reference these sheaths is as "transitional" between Heiser and Johnson.

Does that make everybody happy?

But hey, what do I know, kinda dark where I am and the sand is in my eyes.

This isn't new either and has been talked about on numerous occasions that the presser foot and needle plate on the Heiser machine had a different shape and likely used more pressure resulting in the "tooled" edge effect which in fact is probably a by-product of the sewing process.

You will see sometimes see it to this day to a lesser degree on some Sullivan sheaths, particularly black sheaths.

Joe

I "think" the reason you see it more on black sheaths is the black leather is different than the tan leather. The black leather is "drum dyed" if my memory is correct.

Joe,

I don't know how you can say that you're now in fact aligned with what the 'preponderance" of evidence suggests, yet go on to say I would like to have some hard proof which up to this point has been unobtanium.THE SHEATHS THEMSELVES ARE THE HARD PROOF! Even now, you can't bring yourself to call these sheaths Heisers (Transitional? Come on....) In any event, I've said my piece and there is no merit in further debating minutiae with you.

If I came across hard, I apologise. It was in the interest of all the other collectors out there.


Best,

Again Ron, you need to READ MY POSTS THOROUGHLY which to this point you apparently have not done. It is all in the details my friend, or as you say, minutiae. Or did I call it that?

On page 11 of this thread a quote from my post:



You are repeating what I have already said. Remember, no one was on board until the sheath auction, then the zealots come out of the woodwork. Again, you should read the posts thoroughly.

Also, to be clear, Heiser made sheaths marked with the RMK stamp are most assuredly transitional sheaths. Otherwise, what are they?

In the "interest of all the other collectors out there", I am going with the position that this is still a friendly discussion. I believe most are on the same page, but I for one still like to dig a bit and look for the proverbial smoking gun. So, if some unequivocal information comes to light, it will be presented.

Joe and Ron...and everyone on the "sidelines",
Well: At least we have a thread that folks are passionate about! It is nice to see discussion and theories as to "what was" and "what could have or might have been". I still see a lot of theory and Monday morning quarterbacking.
The truth is constant and one thing holds "true" that can be carried on from this thread. I spoke to Joe an hour ago and I told him (This was before I got home and read all of the recent posts.) that the only true way one can characterize these sheaths, in question, is by using the term "transitional". That is true and what, I believe, they are (at least without editorializing as to what and where and when and who)!
I know of no concrete evidence to support Heiser having ever received a Randall sheath stamp. I never witnesssed old Heiser revolver holsters with Montgomery Ward or J C Penney's logos or names either. I could spectulate that Heiser used their name...and their name "only" on their leather work. Do I have any proof? Absolutely not! Do I arrive at this conclusion simply by what I have "seen" verses "never seen"? NO! I I'm not arriving at any conclusions or speculations. That's why I stated that I "could" speculate. I'm not "actually" speculating.
Either way: Transitional sheaths do, indeed, exist. We are seeing some (quite splendid) examples of them within this thread and I hope we continue to do so. But the truth is still represented by the "transitional" label.
Keep it up everyone (and let's be nice),
Best, Capt. Chris

Joe,

You're killing me here (I'm sure I killing you as well). Yes, I read your posts. This is one of them:








The "Zealot" you mentioned was the guy who was responsible for putting this old question to bed. I for one thank the guy.

The sheaths are Heiser first and "transitional" second in the order of importance to the community.

Best,