I spoke (email) to the person selling this group of sheaths in question. He said that there was nothing other than these sheaths relative to RMK, no documentation, no stamp, and no records or correspondence.

While I don't disagree with Ron's position, I also don't agree, not 100%. That does not mean Ron is wrong, just that I would like some definitive evidence, i.e. some correspondence between Bo and "Heiser", an entry in a journal stating he may have sent them a stamp, or maybe that he had at least two stamps made on his initial order. Perhaps the main point is exactly what was the impetus for Bo to have a stamp made in the first place? Specifically to send to Heiser or for a local sheath maker, particularly knowing he had been looking for a local maker for some time. Which is more plausible? It would seem based on the auction sheaths that Heiser did have a stamp, but maybe not.

One thing I do question is the assumption of use of different machines by Heiser. Speaking with Greg, it seems there were not many makers of machines, and Heiser sheaths had been very consistent in their stitching indicative of consistency of the machine(s) used. But again like some of the things listed by Ron in his most recent post, circumstances change, and with the sale or acquisition of Heiser twice in the decade (1950's) it is possible that a machine from a different manufacturer was added to the line. It could also be something as simple as a personnel change.

I maintain though that we really only see a real contrast when Maurice Johnson comes on the scene.

Another thing I was thinking about is why did this "Heiser" employee have sample sheaths. IIRC, I thought there was a mention the fellow was a salesman, but whatever it was, why would he have samples? The only company that would need samples would presumably be RMK.

What would they be samples for? The sheath itself which was a known entity, for the logo stamp only?

That is a really good question.

Joe,

According to the seller, the estate was of a leather worker. I wouldn't expect a leather worker to have access to, or have retained documentation between Bo and Heiser relating to the Randall stamp. If I put myself in Bo's shoes, I'd much rather have my brand on the sheath as opposed to Heiser's. It could very well be that the last change of Heiser ownership (The Keyston Brothers) finally consented to a request that Bo had made for decades. It's also likely that Bo sent Heiser the stamp as opposed to sending Heiser a drawing of the stamp. In that case, Bo would have asked for the stamp back when he discontinued doing business with them.

When Gaddis started researching Bo's files for his book in 1985, there was almost 50 years of documentation that he had available to him to sort through. Despite the length of time he spent at the shop, he couldn't get to everything. If he missed the correspondence from Bo to Heiser regarding the stamp, IMO the chances that Gary or even Jason will at some time go back through those records to look for the correspondence that you need for definitive proof is pretty slim (If those records even excist now). We have to go with what we have.

With regard to distinguishing the differences between a Heiser sheath and a Johnson sheath with the Randall stamp: We can use the sheaths in the auction as the final product that Heiser produced for Bo. But what Johnson sheaths do we to use to compare? It doesn't make sense to use the horizontal logo sheaths as there has been a consensus that these came before the vertical, and the sheaths in this auction have both positions! From that one data point, one could "almost" say that any sheath with a brown button and a horizontal sheath was likely a Heiser. Since it seems that both Heiser and Johnson produced brown button sheaths with vertical logos, it follows that you can't use these for comparison either. Therefore, the best Johnson comparsion against these Heiser sheaths would be tight stitched roughback baby dot sheaths. Even this comparison wouldn't be 100% accurate as Johnson's quality naturally improved over time. As I said, this ain't going to be easy.

Ron -

I have never heard this mentioned in any conversation relative to the marking on RMK supplied sheaths - "a request that Bo had made for decades". When and where did you hear this?

I will repeat one of the key questions, that being what was the impetus for Bo to get a RMK logo stamp in the first place? Because he didn't like the current "Heiser" logo or because he found a local maker.

From the auction description:

4 Randall Knife Sheaths. 1-7,1-8,12-9,15-5 1/2. All Rough Back. New Condition.All are missing a Snap. AND the 15 5 1/2 sheath has torn stitching on the Sharpener Pouch. See Photos.

The Story: Came from a Estate of a Leather Worker whom worked at "Heiser Saddle Co."in Denver. It was a great Sale ,Besides Leather,Tools,Heiser Stamps..... There was quite a few Saleman Samples. Included were these Randall Sheaths. You will Notice all are marked with "SAMPLE" in red ink. I was unable to remove ink .Maybe you will be more Successfull or Maybe Black Dye? Which Ever, I hope someone has a use for these Sheaths.

My questions to the seller:

Hello -

You mention in your auction that there were "Heiser Stamps" in the estate sale. Do you recall an "Randall Made" stamp(s) as on these sheaths you are selling? Any type of correspondence from Randall Made knives? Anything that you can recall about these sheaths? Were they listed as sales samples in the estate sale?

thanks

His response:

In Bla Bla Discription.I was just relaying Where and When I came across these sheaths. I dont Collect Knives.I'm More into Colorao Stuff. With that said.
The Family didn't know what they had. I'm surprised they didn't just throw everthing away. I didn't see any Randall Stamps or Literature. And dont know why these were mixed in with the Heiser Stuff. Were Heiser and Randall Connected in some way?? Sorry i cant help you more.

S

Comments?

Joe,

I prefaced my comment about Gary's request by saying "If I put myself in Bo's shoes, I'd much rather have my brand on the sheath as opposed to Heiser's". How natural is that?

Regarding your earlier questions:



I agree: I can't think of a scenario other than those samples being for Bo. Let me give you a plausable explanation: Bo sends the stamp to Heiser and asks for samples. The Heiser sales guy tells our leather worker friend to "Make up some different Randall sheaths with the new Randall stamp we just received". Our friend makes ~ 10 sheaths and lets the sales guy know. The sales guy says "I only need about a half dozen", so our friend sits on the remainder until the operation shuts down and brings them home along with a lot of other miscellanous Heiser stuff. Easily believable!

Ronnie,

If Joe wasn't so hard headed.................

Gary's request?

When Bo had the stamp made, I have to believe he was familiar with the design and what it looked like, presumably when used on a piece of leather. I find it unlikely as well as unnecessary that "Heiser" would have to make complete sheaths to send to Bo solely to check on the appearance of the logo stamp. Plus, two of the four in the auction had vertical orientation stamps, obviously later than the first RMK logo stamped sheaths and beyond the "sample" phase, IF (note the big if) there was one.

There are just some things that don't add up.

How did the order of the posts get screwed up?

Joe,

I merged the posts from the "Pairs" thread in the photo forum.... I felt this discussion would be better in this forum.

Sorry for the confusion, but I think everyone gets it......

Each model sheath has a different available area upon which to stamp a logo. Some large and some small. A natural preferance would be horizontal as the sheath is in a naturally perpindicular state. However, some models just don't have the room, and a horizontal stamp would either be prohibitive or have so little margin that it wouldn't be prudent to assume the guy who does the stamping to center the stamp perfectly. If I was Bo, I would have liked to see how the stamps fit each model. This of course is all speculation. I'm just trying to come up with scenarios that align with the evidence we have. I'd like to hear yours.