I am confused about the different terms of yellow micarta, other than AGM. I understand AGM was available 2004 to 2008 or so. As well I have seen and handled Delrin, so understand that material, I think.

But when it comes to Ivorite, linen Micarta, paper micarta, ivory micarta and Old Yellow, which I understand did not always start out yellow, I am flummoxed.

I welcome everyone's opinion and ideas. I have included a pic of 5 Model 5's I took recently. Buck feel free to "touch them up" with your picture magic.

The top pic is the Capt's Bone Linen. The second pic is a Kit knife constructed by Gail White in which he supplied the micarta.

No. 3 knife, all the spacers are equal, so I date this knife to 1985 or newer.
No. 5 knife is the Bear Camp Special I own and was made in June 1982 according to old RKS newsletters.
Now No. 4 knife, if you look at the spacers near the butt cap, the dark one looks gray. I believe this knife fits into the time period, 1977-85, when the middle spacer was black, but frequently turned green or gray.

The most important question, why does this knife have NO grain in the micarta?

Why the difference in the micarta of the Bear Camp and knife No. 4? They are from the same period.

Rod,

Great question! I thought I was the only one who doesn't know the difference. BTW, that Bear Camp is awesome.

Rod,
Can you email the pics to me? Do you have photos of these guys seperately?
Thanks, Capt. Chris

Tom

I have been talking to a few of our fellow Forumites. I think each and everyone of us has at least one "yellow micarta" query.

Cap

I will email you this pic and I will take individual pics tomorrow afternoon.

Rob,

Great topic, and even greater knives.

Alan Grombacher
RKCC-CMI-010

The pics are awfully small and difficult to do much with. This is the "1st" Model #5, i.e. one of my bone linen micarta ones. I commisioned this material to be made in Germany. It is "definetly" linen!
Here goes, Capt. Chris

I think I'll wait until tomorrow's pics come in. Rod: Try taking them...one at a time, using much higher pixel settings and send them to me "full size", as opposed to reduced.
Thanks, Capt. Chris

I bought a small model two "boot knife" out of the Randall showcase in the early seventies. The handle was called ivorite, and it was absolutely Snow White. By the nineties, the handle was yellow , and seems unchanged since then. I gather that it was made from Westinghouse micarta. The Randall folks have advised me not to tamper with the handle, by rubbing, scrubbing, or whatever, in an attempt to restore it to pristine white, as that will do nothing but harm whatever value it has.

Just generic micarta comment. The older formulas use resins which turn yellow with age and or exposure to light. Original paper or finest bleached fine weave linen use, especial on "decorative" instead industrial micartas.

That fine weave seems to be inaccessible to industry now, or too expensive.

Resins have improved but only time tell how improved. Can spot winners from past, though as switched from phenolic to epoxy resin in many case and process improved with better control.

If knife dates correct, no reason to doubt mix of older or newer supply as stock sized for certain knife. Also no knowing exposure of knife since made.

Wow, that is an impressive line-up, Rod! I'm sorry I can't contribute anything substantial but I'd like to learn more about the "Yellow Micarta Mystery"
And I must confess that I absolutely adore this Bearcamp Special

Tom (TAH) and Peter (Litch)

Thanks for the kind words about the Bear Camp. I wish I could clone that knife, as I could have sold it about 10 times.

More pics in a few hours.

I don't think Rod mentioned the fact that his Bearcamp is serial #1 of that special!!!

Cool knife!

Rod, great thread.... I look forward to this conversation.

I took some pics (loose term in my case) for the three knives and mailed them to the Cap. We will await his verdict.

Just to confuse myself more, I found an "ivorite" handled Model 24, which I bought used in 2001. I did not email this pic to him, just added it for "color".

This may be rehashing old information, but there are three (and probably more) types of micarta. Paper has the finest "grain", followed by linen and canvas is the coarsest grain. The "grain" may not be detectable in good paper micarta, but it can easily be seen in linen and canvas.
Exactly how this relates to Westinghouse, "ivorite", yellow or gold micarta as used for Randall knife handle is not clear to me.
I told Rod in a private conversation that I thought the color changes seen with some micartas are probably due to differences in the chemicals used and/or the exact process by which the stuff is formed.
Certainly, some colors do not change and some change quite rapidly. For instance, the so-called Westinghouse yellow micarta that was being sold on eBay a couple years ago. That stuff has been discussed here before and changed from yellow to brown quite quickly.

- - - -Buckspen

Speaking of Ivory (linen) Micarta.............

I picked this model 8-4 up a few weeks ago.

Is anyone familiar with the scrimshaw artist, Bruce Paxton?

The scrimshaw was done in 1987. The name sounds familiar, but I just can't place it.

Rod, Buck and everyone,
Buck: Your Model #8
Rod: Your knives in ivorite
ALL of these knives are Westinghouse, Ivorite Micarta. ALL of these knives are, what is commonly referred to, "Old Yeller".
ALL of these knives (Yes Buck...Yours too) are "not" linen. Westinghouse Ivorite is a "paper micarta". As far as "Grain"..."Color"..."Darkening"...Etc., Etc.: It varies like the wind! Different cuts, length or bias, etc. along with exposure to: Heat...Cold...Atmosphere...and, most importantly..."LIGHT" are all causes for these variants.
Newer Ivorite, Ivorite micarta, AI, White lineal, etc. vary in formula and base (linen or paper)..."None" are canvas-based...(at least none I have dealt with). The ivory stuff that the shop used after Old Yeller" would check and crack, almost like ivory. I have never seen the severity in their cracking as I have in ivory, but it still happened.
Hope this helps, Capt. Chris
PS: I was at the Randall shop a good portion of the day (closed the joint). It was agreed on amongst "us'ns" there today that my accessment of the handles on Rod's knives (along with Bucks...though later) is correct.
CCS
Just for comparison
#10-3 in White Lineal
#10-3 in Ant. Gold Mic.
#10-3 in Bone Linen
#10-3 in Elephant Ivory

It's not often that this Forum gets "Two Bucks "worth of postings in the same thread.

Chris, it had been my understanding that the ivory micarta that showed what I called, "contour lines" in the micarta, as in my model 8-4", is/was linen micarta.

But, you're saying, "close but no cigar". Correct?

I guess I'm getting my ivory linen(?) micarta confused with ivory lineal micarta.

I am, by no means, the final authority on Old Yeller, but all research and conversations I have done and had with quite a few different sources have concurred that the shop-supplied Westinghouse Ivorite was all paper. All examples posted within this thread and subject certainly look 100% shop made.
Just sayin, Capt. Chris
PS: I have not researched the white lineal but it looks (to me anyway) to "not" be paper, i.e. linen.

Buck, could the canvas micarta you're thinking of be the old phenolic resin impregnated canvas used to make helmet liners, before the K-pots? You could see the folds of canvas in that stuff.

My feeble memory tells me all old Westinghouse micarta...... what I call "Old Yellow" is paper micarta.

The big trigger on this is that I read that the original was paper micarta which could be scrimshawed..... canvas micarta could not. Canvas micarta frayed when it was scratched.

Just a memory..... maybe some Bourbon involved. Your milage may vary....

Wally,
Although of much more recent production, this nice #11-4" was built out of old canvas micarta. It has been called several names in the past:
A) Bees wax
B) Honeycomb
It is very way-cool old material. As many of you know...I gotta' lot of handle material, aquired over 4 decades (or so). I have a few more examples of this stuff, which I plan on making up.
Here's a couple of photos...
Best, Capt. Chris

Rod,
I wonder of you could post a pic of your Bearcamp, along with it's sheath? I ask for a very good reason. All of this "white/ivory/yellow" topic stuff had me doing a little diggin' in the Ol' "Captain's Stash". I have come up with "my" Bearcamp Spl. It is S/N 28 and is of much...MUCH later vintage.
I would like to do a bit of comparing...and it is all on topic with this thead...Because: You ain't gonna believe what my handle is made out of?
Thanks, Capt. Chris
PS: Ain't that just like a redneck to end a sentence (in this particular case, a question) with a preposition!...CCS

If you look closely (may need glass) at linen micarta, you should see the weave of the material. You will not see that with paper.

Thanks guys - this is a great (and informative) thread!

Buck - I have seen one other knife scrimmed by Bruce Paxton. It's a Bear Bowie and is for sale at present on the Collector Firearms web site
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/randall-model-12-big-bear-bowie-k1537/#.VO3fe3zF-So

This knife was previously sold in an Amoskeag auction in September 2013.

- -Buckspen

Here is a photo of my Bearcamp Special. It is number 5.
- - Buckspen

This a a knife I found recently. It came to me with the original white paper wrap that stated the handle is IM (imitation ivory). I've had a couple other knives with this handle material and they did check or crack similar to real ivory. I've never seen Westinghouse micarta do that.
- Buckspen

The was a Bearcamp Special offered for sale recently on eBay. It was #33 and had a white handle. It was previously sold in an Amoskeag auction in September 2013 and again in May 2014. The handle was described as "mammoth ivory" in the 2013 auction and as "ivorite" in the 2104 auction. This is a much later knife than #1 and #5.
- Buckspen

Here's what I'm certain is old Westinghouse micarta. The scrimmed side was displayed, so some difference in the yellowing between the two sides is noticeable.

Cap

Here is an old pic of Bear Camp Special SN 1.

My favorite material.....here's some paper Westinghouse.....only displayed on the stand for this photo and then put back into total darkness to preserve the pale look.

Buck, Doug & Rod,
Thanks for your photos.
Buck: The "IM" stands for "ivorite micarta" and it is in Scott's handwriting. It is, most probably, the white crap used "after" the Westinghouse supplies were exhausted and prior to the "new" Ivorite, which is far...far better.
The Bearcamp #33 is similar to mine, i.e. the white crap. I cannot find the time to take photos of my setup right now as my photo ability is "torn down" right now, due to a commitment at the Randall shop yesterday. Soon, I promise.
Doug: Nice knife, as is Wally's. The more I study all of this the more & more one conclusion keeps popping into my head. How about this "Captain's Theory". There are "several reasons" for the Old Yeller turning...well...Yeller. We know that exposure to light and heat effect it. How about: Reason #2: It's made of "paper" and we all know that paper, unlike linen, turns darker with age.
If you find an old newpaper that has been left to the elements the damage is obvious. Take the same paper and preserve it in a tight container and un-exposed to light, etc. and it preserves far far better!
Just sayin',
Capt. Chris
PS: Yep...A good thread...CCS

I think your theory does hold water Captain....I noticed in the Randall museum that a number of their Westinhouse knives had turned a light brown color (or maybe tan would be a better description)...maybe the result of being displayed in the sunlight for many years.

Could someone possibly associate some dates or time frames with the shop supply of the Old Yeller, AGM, "white crap" ivorite, and current (better) ivorite? Thanks. Excellent thread by the way.

Jim E.

You are correct Rick Bowles showed a picture of the little bear bowie that I got from you to me. It was white when he was finished with it and had yellowed over time. He told me he could only scrim the paper micarta.

Good mileage keep pouring!

Jim E

I think AGM was offered 2004-2008 or so.

Old yellow was first offered early 1970's and I have no idea how long it was offered. Now after doing some re-reading on these Forums I came up with this: The rule of thumb has always been that the material Bo settled on, Westinghouse Ivorite, became available if requested sometime in 1974-1975 or so.


You don't mention Delrin, but again, my guess is mid 60's for a start date.

Can't help you with Ivorite and Ivory Micarta.

Regarding the Captain's Theory (above), there is yet another variable. The quality of the paper may influence the degree of color change. The cheaper the paper (for instance, newsprint), the more it discolors with age. Better grades of paper don't change color as much.
This is a really great thread and I am enjoying it very much!
- -Buckspen

The 2 shots below illustrate handle questions I've had since owning the knife. The seller said he bought the knife in ~1998 from the original Randall dealer, and he thought it was "near-new" at that time (he was adamant about the date...).

He also said the contrast in the handle coloring had not changed over time - i.e., it came that way from the dealer, and had always been stored away from sunlight in a display case.

I'm certainly no expert, but I've thought the handle was actually AGM; however, I can't reconcile that assumption with what the seller said - any thoughts as to what's really the case?

The date's about right. I think I had these guys made after that, but about that time. This stuff is "neither AGM...Nor...Old Yeller". I assumed it was as well, as I was sold the same bill of goods as others were about this stuff. The laminations are way different..."BUT"...I like it! I still have one of the 3 I had made. These is the only pics I have here at Jerrys. (Old computer)
I think some kind of a yellow/gold micarta, but nothing the shop has used.
Hope this helps, Capt. Chris

Bob

No one is confirming, or contradicting my dates, but I am pretty sure AGM was only used 2004-2008 or so.

Thanks Chris & Rod,

That's what I couldn't figure - the date didn't seem to match up with AGM (2004 - 2008). And Chris, the seller called it "Gold Micarta", so I guess who knows, but I do like it also...

Hey...Everyone:
I find this interesting and pertinent to this topic. Although this nice old Morseth hunter isn't a Randall, it is quite appropriately made at the right time and with the right stuff, i.e.: Old Yeller.
A customer brought this to me a couple of weeks ago, just to have it appraised. When I drew the knife out of the sheath I immediately said: "Uh huh...Old Yeller...and that God-awful fading and darkening". He asked me what I was talking about. He's a good guy, an avid hunter and fisherman...and "NEVER" noticed this?!/'#+*!???
Can you folks pick out the "tell-tale" sign?
Best, Capt. Chris

Oof ...

The micarta is darker on the butt end. Specifically the section of the handle that sticks out of the sheath.

Can you believe the guy didn't notice that? Wow! Anyway: I hope to have a nice "before-n-after" photo once I get it taken care of. Folks: Don't store your knives in their sheaths..and don't leave one side facing the sun!
Rod: This should interest you. We often see a whole side of a knife darker than the other, but this one side is "two-toned
! It should interest you because:
* Not only is the exposed side darker..."BUT"...(There's that word again)...
* Notice how the laminations seem to fade and blend together. "Obviously the same piece of micarta, but might help you understand (visually) how your one model #5 seemed to be something "other" than Old Yeller.
Hope this helps everyone readily see what we have been talking about.
Best, Capt. Chris

?? What's going to take place with it?
Is someone going to "try" and make that handle look equal?

Mike,
Yes, exactly. That's the plan!
Best, Capt. Chris

"Notice how the laminations seem to fade and blend together. "Obviously the same piece of micarta, but might help you understand (visually) how your one model #5 seemed to be something "other" than Old Yeller".

Capt, reference your quote above, I accept yellow micarta changes with exposure to light. Is it your "guess" that the different color micarta on my Model 5 with the scalloped spacer, is not Old Yellow? Not that it really matters to me one way or the other.

It will be interesting to see how much material he has to remove before he gets into the lighter material.

Rod,
The knife is old yeller. The grain changes, in appearance, over time with the darkening..."plus"...micarta cut from different lots or on different sides would explain yours looking...well...different!
Mike,
I though I would let James-N-Crew have a go of it. We'll see. If it works out well. It may very well be a solution for folks that have an old Randall in ivorite that has been darkened on 1 side only.
Best, Capt. Chris

I recently sold this #7 to a member here. The knife had a round sticker on it just back of the hilt which I carefully peeled off when I got it a couple years ago. You can see that the color under the sticker is lighter than the rest of the handle. I also have a #12-8 with an oddly colored handle that I will post photos of this weekend.
-Buckspen

From the look of the spacers, this #12-8 Bear Bowie was probably made in the early 1980's. The handle color varies quite a bit.
- Buckspen

Bruce

Your Yellow is similar to the Yellow Cap posted, with the different shading. Do you know if your knife was stored/exposed to sun/day light?

"Sheath line"...for lack of a better term. The portion darker would ride above the belt loop.
Best, Capt. Chris

Rod - I got the knife in a Rock Island auction last year. It came to me in a replacement sheath, so who knows how it had been stored? Does the handle look worn to you or would it have come from the shop that way? The handle shape is more "rounded" or "smoothed" than I would have expected it to be.

- - Buckspen

As promised, it's back! The instruction were to make the old yeller look "equal"...not to touch the blade, etc.
I think it came out even better than I had hoped.
Best, Capt. Chris

Hello!
That 8-4X saw on sale. Interestingly, this yellow micarta or something else?

Really nice #8-4, very cool options on a smaller model.

Pap

I apologize for my poor pics, and I am adding quite a few. I have 3 knives and wondered if they were ole yeller or AGM. Any help is always greatly appreciated. L. Sasquatch, Soligen Fighter and a Model 2-4.

Ol' Yeller! Nice knives!
Best, Capt. Chris

Thanks again Captain! So, with the yellow micarta handle....would this Solingen fighter be pre 1987?

Eric, The Solingen Fighter is approx. 1990.

Thanks TB. Works for me.

Apparently the first Solingen fighters could be late 70's. There may have been a couple of trial runs according to GTR. .

I have a fellow that says he bought one in 1976 and remembers it because it was the bicentennial. Doing some additional checking, and trying to get some photos of a one with the three thick two thin spacer arrangement. 1976 would seem to be a bit early for that model IMO, as we were totally out of Viet Nam in 1975, and Solingen 14's and 15's were still available for a couple of years after that date. So not 100% on it right now.

Joe,
I had Solingens made in the late 1980's up to...and through the mid 1990's. They were all CDT's, just as this appears to be, verses full, exposed models of the earlier times. The baby dot sheath is also a Sullivans so the dating of late 80's to early 90's also holds true. I think the sheaths were pewter "logo" snapped soon after that.
Also: No earlier examples (at least none I have ever seen) were made with "slotted" Westinghouse, "Old Yeller".
Best, Capt. Chris

Here's a color comparison--top is 'old yeller' and bottom is AGM.

any input on the handle material would be appreciated
I read this entire thread that contains many theories
thanks

Westinghouse

All those yellow micarta ones are gorgeous!!

is that the "antique gold" ?

No, AGM came after the Westinghouse.
The AGM had a darker, more golden appearance, IMO.

"Westinghouse", after it has been installed and gets out into the "real world", will turn (yellow) darker over time. Only darkness (as a safe queen) can slow the process. That's why it is commonly referred to as "Old Yeller" (or yellow).
Hope this helps...(Nice knife)
Capt. Chris

I have several Ol'Yellers and the first thing I look for is the obvious pattern in the handle. The Westinghouse yellow paper micarta ALWAYS comes with the wavy-grain appearance as if you were looking at a nicely grained piece of lumber. And, as has been pointed out, it is subject to fading and discoloration.

If the micarta looks like the weave of cloth, you are looking at what is referred to as linen or canvas micarta. If you don't see the grain or the weave you are looking at a much newer yellow and it looks like a solid color as if painted.

Hope that is some help.

rimfire

thanks for everyone's knowledge and input

no