#126583 - 04/18/15 01:51 AM
Re: Following Capt Chris' orders!
[Re: samg]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 02/13/11
Posts: 2270
Loc: NW Mississippi
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Sam that wasn't Ronnie.....it was President Merkin Muffley.
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Ronnie
RKS#2166
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#126585 - 04/18/15 02:23 AM
Re: Following Capt Chris' orders!
[Re: Ronnie]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 533
Loc: North Carolina
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Sorry I missed that Mr President! :-)
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Sam Granade
RKS Member #5700
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#126588 - 04/18/15 08:51 AM
Re: Following Capt Chris' orders!
[Re: BoBlade]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 2850
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Well, well, well, His Holiness rides back in on his high horse again to chastise, yet his hypocrisy knows no bounds: Again, handling sheaths obviously doesn't mean much to you, Mr Mathews has handled a few, has he not? Oh but he is mistaken?
No Joe, you are. I called for an integrity check and wa la, no can do huh Ron? Who actually brought you back into the fray after you asked me to keep you out? I don't see crutch tip in that quote above, do you? How about a nice post publicly asking if not telling your protege to keep you out! Be sure to threaten him also with disciplinary action by the moderators. Nevertheless, your previous posts are in the subject line and therefore are fair game. You can hide under your desk and put on this facade of takin the high road, but your veil is pierced, and it is out there like it or not. Sad thing is using your gut the first time you were correct in your assessment of your model 3 sheaths. You knew MJ made them by looking at them. Then you swallowed hook, line, and sinker, a theory that has since been proven un-true, but you were already committed. You wanted it to be true. You needed it to be true. There was no turning back as you thought the Ark of the Covenant had been found, and Ron Mathews, the white knight, was gonna deliver the goods to the collecting community that was salivating for answers. Talk about ego. All the while you were assassinating my character (still are) and quesitioning my knowledge/judgement because I was not willing to immediately be a lemming and jump on board what ended up being a sinking ship. Then, to take advantage of newer collectors like you have done is unbecoming in the least. In your zeal to be the anointed one, you gave them the stamp of approval using your position as a known collector to lend credibility to the case. This done without you fully vetting the claim, and they ran with it. Shameful. This should be between two old time collectors, not relatively newer guys being used to tow the line in a convoluted attempt to insulate yourself from the mere appearance of impropriety. What happened to you? I will let this go to one thing and I can’t repost these photos that are very clear because this forum will not accept the file size. So I will provide the link for your convenience, because I care. http://www.knifetalkforums.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=125407#Post125407The first four posts contain all you need to see, but I welcome you to review the thread as if you haven't already. If you can tell all on this forum that there is no difference in the sheaths posted as I have identified them, as Tune identified them, as GC identified them, as YOU identified them, then you are intellectually dishonest and a hypocrite - again. I know you, and I know when you look at these photos you are gonna know in your heart of hearts as you say, that the sheaths are from different makers. Are you able to admit that?
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#126595 - 04/18/15 09:55 AM
!
[Re: crutchtip]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 1673
Loc: Kalifornia
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(Mitchell: I apologize in advance, but this has to be said. Note also that it does change the value of the package!: Any seasoned collector knows a knife in a BB Heiser is worth more than a Johnson BB on e-bay or anywhere else) Joe, You do my work for me. You just put your credibility and reputation on the line for all to plainly see what I have been talking about: Your claims:
Then you swallowed hook, line, and sinker, a theory that was proven un-true, but you were already committed. There was no turning back as you thought the Ark of the Covenant had been found, and Ron Mathews, the white knight, was gonna deliver the goods to the collecting community that was salivating for answers. Talk about ego.
Then, to take advantage of newer collectors like you have done is unbecoming in the least. In your zeal to be the anointed one, you gave them the stamp of approval using your position as a known collector to lend credibility to the case. This done without fully vetting, and they ran with it. Shameful. This should be between two old time collectors, not relatively newer guys being used to tow the line in a convoluted attempt to insulate yourself from the mere appearance of impropriety. What happened to you? Following is my initial post on Jack's research. 1. Does it look like I swallowed the theory hook, line and sinker? 2. Did I give the theory my "stamp of approval"? 3. Did I run with it without vetting it? No, no and no! I laid it out in the clearest terms I could and asked for help from the members to prove or disprove it. Do you really think you can throw out this kind of BS and have it stick to the wall just because you're the great Joe Dorsky? You love to use the term "intellectually dishonest". Mr. Dorsky, you are the poster boy for this term. This example should make it clear to everyone including your strongest supporters. It doesn't get more black and white (if you want to talk "knights"): http://www.knifetalkforums.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=110866&page=9I had a lengthy discussion with a gentleman on another forum that I think is important enough to share with you guys. His name is Jack Williams and he goes by "Jacknola". He hasn't been involved with Randalls that long, but he has taken the power of observation and focused it on the differentiating attributes of Heiser vs. Johnson BB sheaths carrying the vertical Randall logo (Something that's hard to believe some of us more seasoned collectors haven't done before!) . Two distinct "tell's have emerged:
1. The orientation of the (vertical) stamp.
2. The placement of the male keeper snap on the sheath.
We need to start out by making sure these features are indeed associated with a specific manufacturer. In the case of Heiser, we have the ebay auction photo as a control. From the 1st photo, we can see that the vertical 12-9 logo is positioned in what Jack calls "West-facing". In other words you have to be "West" of the vertical logo in order to have the printing to read right-side-up:
In the next photo, you can easily see that the male retainer snaps are positioned in the center of the sheath.
In the case of Johnson, we don't have an absolute "known" Johnson BB sheath to use as a control, so we can take a mid-to-late 60's tight stitched plain button or "baby dot" sheath to use as a control for these attributes. Here's a pair of Johnson baby dot 1-7 sheaths with a diagonal keeper strap. Note that the male keeper is positioned on the far right side of the sheaths:
On the back side, you can see that the Randall logos are oriented "East-facing":
The litmus test as to whether or not these different features can used as a guideline to determine if a BB sheath with a Randall logo was made by Heiser or Johnson is whether or not the manufacturers were consistant in their orientation of the vertical logo and the placement of the male keeper.
From the Heiser side, do all sheaths that either have very early 60's provenance or blade grinds have the "West-facing" logos and middle of the sheath male keepers. So far, EVERY ONE of these that Jack or I have found do! Here are some examples:
1. Tom Clinton's pinned ebony Model 1-8 name and year 1960 etched (Top knife):
As you can see, the male keeper is positioned in the middle of the sheath.
As you can see, the vertical Randall logo is West-facing (Knife on the left).
2. Michael Mason's 4-6 with an ink marked sheath dated 3-11-61:
Note the male keeper is positioned in the middle of the sheath
Note the vertical Randall logo is oriented West-facing.
3. Bob Hunt's double hilt Model 3-7 on page 169 of his book Randall Military Models with a 1961 ink marked sheath:
It's hard to see, but the logo is West-facing. There is no photo of the front of the sheath.
4. There are some BB sheaths with Randall logos that are so early in the 60's that they still have a horizontal keeper. All these that I have found have the West-facing logo:
5. All of the very early 60's knives with shallow elongated choils that I have found have BB sheaths with West-facing logos and middle of the sheath male snaps. Here are a few examples:
Jack's Model 1-8:
My laminated brown Micarta 3-6:
My "original Recon":
On the flip side, EVERY mid to late 60's tight stitched rough back Johnson baby dot sheath I have or have seen carries the East-facing logo and diagonal keeper that is fastened at one of the far sides of the sheath! Other BB sheaths with the Randall logos that I know are not early 60's have East-facing logos and far edge keeper placements. The first order in Bo's journal for a 12-8 was February 6th, 1964. This is the only known 12-8 BB sheath. It has the East-facing logo and far side keeper placement:
With reagrd to the "horizontal" Randall logos: Every one of these that I've seen has the keeper placed in the middle of the sheath, which seems to be consistant with Heiser.
There may be a THIRD distinguishing feature! As I was going through my sheaths to photograph a few this morning, I noticed that all the West-facing logo / middle keeper placement sheaths had a "tooled ridge" on the edges:
While all the the East-facing logo / far side keeper placement sheaths had "rounded shoulders":
Then I took a look at my 50's Heiser sheaths and saw all of these had tooled edges:
I'm soliciting help from anyone who can contribute to what Jack calls his "Heiser-Johnson brown button Grand Unification Theory" in terms of data points that either support it or contradict it. If we're going to have a Randall community-accepted method for distinguishing Heiser vs. Johnson BB sheaths, we need to have statistical probability on our side. If and when there is general acceptance, then we can start to narrow down the timeframe that Johnson got involved. I don't think there is any way to pinpoint it by knife attributes, as (1) There were varying quantities of Heiser sheaths in stock for different models at that time and (2) Some knives sat in inventory for a while before they were sold, but we should be able to get a pretty good idea. We might even be able to come up with a graphic timeline that looks something like this (Courtesy of Jack)
Thanks in advance for any help you can give.
Best,
_________________________
Ron Mathews
RKS No. 4223
_________________________
Ron Mathews
RKS No. 4223
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#126597 - 04/18/15 09:59 AM
Re: Following Capt Chris' orders!
[Re: samg]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 533
Loc: North Carolina
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Here is why I am done with you Joe. Its a tactic you have used on me over and over. Laid out plainly for all to see. Your direct question to me: So, let's get to the heart of the matter and………….tell us about Cap’s #7.
Nothin more, nothin less My direct answer to you: OK Joe, Cap's #7
My observations that lead me to believe this knife is Heiser/HKL:
1) west facing stamp, proved with provenance that Heiser/HKL used, and stated in your timeline.
2) serif number stamp, proved with provenance that Heiser/HKL used, and stated in your timeline.
3) No front edge beveling, proved with provenance that Heiser/HKL did not do.
We will start with that Joe.
I would appreciate it if you would make your case that this sheath is a Johnson, with provenance.
Thanks Joe. Very direct answer. Then your response, not answer to me: good try Sam, but again falls short of reality. This information is covered in my thread but I will revisit. I have to add though, this is the same tired argument that has been made for what, 3 months now according to Ron. 1)both hkl and johnson used the west facing stamp as proven with this stamp on this sheath. There are other numerous examples in my thread and elsewhere. 2)johnson also used the serif stamp for a period when he first started making sheaths for RMK, as depicted with this sheath and numerous other examples in my thread and elsewhere. 3)Neither did Johnson on some of his earliest sheaths as this one exhibits as do others pictured in my thread and elsewhere. You seem to forget we are talking a short period here, months, so you can twist and turn all you like, but you can't refute, no one can refute these typical Johnson traits: 1)die cut of sheath 2)belt loop width & shape 3)overall stitching 4)butterfly shape and stitching 5)little to no edge "tooling" on body of sheath. What is so disturbing about your take, is that the other two sheaths in Cap's thread are clearly HKL, yet are totally different than the model 7 you claim is an HKL. You don't see it. Cap sees it. I see it. Some other see it. Cap's sheath is the same sheath type in Ron's photos in my thread of six model 3 sheaths that he said 5 out of 6 were Johnson's. One was Heiser marked. If you reread my thread, you will see I agreed with his assessment, save for one which I think is HKL, so I am 4 out of 6 in agreement. And I am even going your way towards HKL!! Originally Posted By: BoBlade Joe, I told you three months ago that (given your fixed position and demeanor), I wasn't going to waste my time debating this issue with you. Nothing has changed, and that includes putting words into Sam's mouth. You're wrong about that! Please keep me out of this. I have better things to do. Ron Ron - good to see you posting, irrespective of the topic. Sorry you were dragged into this if that is the case, but it is eery how much Sam sounds like you when presenting his argument. Particularly with his latest foray with "edge beveling". Quite a coincidence that lo and behold something that we both know you and I discussed previously (on at least a couple of occasions) now suddenly appears at this late date. Shocker. My demeanor? I could easily respond in kind, but I refrain due to our history. Fixed position? I have agreed with your assessment of things on several fronts. The only "fixed position" is you believe EVERY "R" up sheath is an HKL, EVERY center snap sheath is an HKL, completely discounting any other trait. Completely discounting the fact that Johnson used Heiser/HKL as a model for his sheaths. Completely discounting he copied them to the best of his ability using the equipment and materials he had. Were they exact? Of course not, the differences between the two are very clear. No one is or has said they were exact copies, but they were close servicable copies for a period until he came into his own. It is that simple. _________________________ www.rmkcollector.comBUY-SELL-TRADE Then you go on an insulting tirade. I answered your question directly without editorializing. Then you speak for Scott? He is a man, he can speak for himself. Then you go on a 2 post rant, TRYING to insult a man (me) that you don't even know. You asked me a direct question, I gave you a direct answer. I can do this with you all day long Joe, you amuse me with your childish behavior. But I am on my way to a beautiful weekend with my family and friends up in the mountains, so I will be out of the loop for a few days. Behave yourself young man, I won't be able to defend my honor for a couple days. Have fun.
_________________________
Sam Granade
RKS Member #5700
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#126598 - 04/18/15 10:01 AM
Re: Following Capt Chris' orders!
[Re: samg]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 533
Loc: North Carolina
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You are only half right Mitchell. I have kept it clean and stuck only to the facts. Its Joe that has tried to tear apart. Reread the language.
Its an insult to lump us with Dorsky. He is the one trying to rip apart.
If you lump him with me, please show me language that I have used with him, like blowhard, moron, intellectually challenged, or insulting as he was to Ron.
Reread his tirade, then show me mine that I used language like that.
Tenatiously standing my ground, but childish temper tantrum? I don't think so. Joe holds no sway over me or my emotions.
Really Mitchell!?
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Sam Granade
RKS Member #5700
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#126599 - 04/18/15 10:08 AM
Re: !
[Re: BoBlade]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 2850
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No need to apologize to anyone Ron, you finally grew a set and are responding. Too bad it takes so much prodding to get you in gear and do your own work.
And to be clear, crystal friggin clear, for the umpteenth time, put on you glasses, hearing aide, or what ever you have to do. How and why are the years 1960, 1961 even being brought up? Why? I am not and have not been talking about those years as the transition. Stated it more times than I can remember, even in this thread!!
Sam, and now you are bringing it into the equation. there is no debate on who made those sheaths and I also been very clear on that. So why do you bring up anything other than 1962 when GTR found MJ? Why? To muddy the water and confuse the readers?
By the way, the last line in your old post was "Thanks in advance for any help you can give". Well I gave plenty of help Ron, but you never thanked me. I guess it wasn't shall we say, the "help" that suited you.
So quit obfuscating and just answer he question Ron about the photos I referenced. It is that simple. Put up or shut up.
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#126604 - 04/18/15 10:57 AM
Re: !
[Re: crutchtip]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 533
Loc: North Carolina
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Real simple Joe,
1960 provenance demonstrates the HKL made those sheaths because its before Johnson came on the scene.
It only establishes the fact. Nothing else
What you are not understanding, is that you have nothing but your OPINION that there are west/horizontal sheaths made by Johnson.
No evidence but as you say "traits".
So what! We have manufacturing techniques by Heiser used long before RMK.
Same techniques. Its a continuous pattern into the RMK era.
You are attempting to " grab" some of those RMK west/horizontal sheaths claiming they are Johnson, just because you think you see traits?
Could it be that your opinion skewed any objectivity, and you just weren't interested, so you began trying to fit those Heiser/HKL west/horizontals into your Johnson narrative?
That would be logical.
Your OPINION doesn't hold up in court sir.
Case dismissed!
West/Horizontal serif numbered, non edge beveled RMK's Heiser/HKL
East, Johnson.
Its as plain and simple as that.
Again Joe, traits ain't provenance!
Or are they to you?
Please explain to me how you make the case that a "trait" is in any way provenance?
Do you feel that actual provenance and your "observation of traits" are one and the same?
Thanks
_________________________
Sam Granade
RKS Member #5700
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#126607 - 04/18/15 11:15 AM
Re: !
[Re: samg]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 533
Loc: North Carolina
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Were you there when Johnson got his dies, maybe they came from Heiser
Were you there when the sheaths were sewn to tell the stitch differences?
My point is, provenance is a link between then and now. Your link is only your opinion, and you are hoping that "years of experience handling them" will convince others.
That would be fine if you considered the manufacturing clues that are obvious, that tell us, without a doubt, who made what.
You see Joe, I manufacture flutes, by hand, one by one.
I know how to distinguish one flute maker from another. I look at his technique, not the type wood.
Manufacturing clues Joe.
_________________________
Sam Granade
RKS Member #5700
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