#26072 - 03/11/10 08:10 PM
Re: This Old Randall
[Re: samg]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 1673
Loc: Kalifornia
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Hi Sam,
I'm up to my Showtime in alligators at work right now. I'll get a reply back to you tomorrow morning.
Best,
_________________________
Ron Mathews RKS No. 4223
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#26074 - 03/12/10 08:42 AM
Re: This Old Randall
[Re: BoBlade]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 6900
Loc: Glen Head NY
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Ron ... No problem ... you have all the bases covered! ![](/images/graemlins/grin.gif) ... ANOTHER nice one! ![](/images/graemlins/wink.gif) Tony
_________________________
Tony LaPetri RKS#1885 RKCC CM-022
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#26075 - 03/12/10 11:03 AM
Re: This Old Randall
[Re: samg]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 1673
Loc: Kalifornia
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Quote:
Hey Ron, Nice hunter. Being new to this, I got a question. It appears to have a small Ricasso, which probably dates it to 44 or later. When Bo redesigned the hunter in '45 he incorporated a longer choil so that one could place a finger there. So would this knife date to sometime in '44 before he made the changes? Just a guess.
Sam,
You can make a generalized statement that ricassos were smaller during the war years than post war, but you can't pin a knife down within the war years because of it's ricasso.
From my experience, the Hunter evolved into it's classic Model 3 features during the war and not suddenly post war! Early Hunters had a rudimentary choil, virtually no "hump" coming off the hilt, more of an upswept blade, a larger hilt and a handle that necked down very little. The knife I posted a photo of yesterday (which I put '44) and the photo in Gaddis' book on page 68 depict representative examples. By war's end Hunters had a conventional choil, a hump, less of an upsweep, a "normal" hilt and a necked down handle. Here are a few examples:
![](http://www.fototime.com/1DCFD345160CCA4/standard.jpg)
![](http://www.fototime.com/4166D1FC82B1905/standard.jpg)
The one distinguishing feature between a WWII Hunter and a post war Model 3 is the former have a brass nut and washer and the latter a peened tang. If you look carefully at the leather handled field knives in Bo's new post war lineup on page 105 in Gaddis' book, you will see they all have a peened tang.
Note:
1. Model 3's made shortly after the war had a small stamp for a short period of time. Very shortly thereafter the 6" and 7" blade lengths went back to the large stamp. All WWII knives had a large stamp.
2. Brass nuts and washers were again used on some field knives in the early 50's. By this time the "blade flat" had gone away, so this is the "tell" that they are not WWII era.
3. Heiser sheaths for 6" Hunters made during the war had a narrow throat. Immediately post war Heiser sheaths for 5 1/2" and 6" blades had a wide throat. There were no differences in Heiser sheaths made for Hunter / Model 3 7" blades from mid '44 through mid '46.
Best
_________________________
Ron Mathews RKS No. 4223
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#26076 - 03/12/10 12:12 PM
Re: This Old Randall
[Re: BoBlade]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 533
Loc: North Carolina
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Ron, Thanks for the wealth of info on the Hunters. Very detailed. A couple of things that I have noticed about the white spacers for this time frame (40's) is that the white spacers used were both medium and narrow on leather handled knives. In the photos that I have seen, for example the one you mentioned, pp 105 in Gaddis' book, the hunter has thin white spacers, and the example in Sheldons book pp 27 that example has medium white spacers, so there doesn't seem to be a standard for the spacers in that era.Some examples have both thin and medium in the same knife. Do you have any thoughts on that? Also, you mentioned that the Heiser wide throat sheath came post war. I read that the riveted throats were discontinued sometime in 48-49. Was the wide throat discontinued around the same time? Thanks Ron, and thanks again for your major contribution on these beautiful old Randalls, and for posting all the fine examples of knives that you have in your collection. Have a great weekend.
_________________________
Sam Granade RKS Member #5700
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#26077 - 03/12/10 02:30 PM
Re: This Old Randall
[Re: samg]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 1673
Loc: Kalifornia
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Thanks, Sam. Your follow up questions require another "tomorrow morning" response.
Best,
_________________________
Ron Mathews RKS No. 4223
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#26078 - 03/12/10 02:50 PM
Re: This Old Randall
[Re: BoBlade]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 533
Loc: North Carolina
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Thanks Ron, In the meantime, I will continue to see what I can find from the books that I have. Still waiting on Hunts books. Have a good one,
_________________________
Sam Granade RKS Member #5700
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#26079 - 03/13/10 11:25 AM
Re: This Old Randall
[Re: samg]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 1673
Loc: Kalifornia
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Quote:
A couple of things that I have noticed about the white spacers for this time frame (40's) is that the white spacers used were both medium and narrow on leather handled knives. In the photos that I have seen, for example the one you mentioned, pp 105 in Gaddis' book, the hunter has thin white spacers, and the example in Sheldons book pp 27 that example has medium white spacers, so there doesn't seem to be a standard for the spacers in that era.Some examples have both thin and medium in the same knife. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Also, you mentioned that the Heiser wide throat sheath came post war. I read that the riveted throats were discontinued sometime in 48-49. Was the wide throat discontinued around the same time?
Sam,
I think if Bo could have secured spacers all the same thickness, he would have. If I follow that line of thinking he just wasn't able to for whatever reason(s). I've seen more variation during the war years and I attribute that to the fact that just about everything during the war years was harder to procure. The other variables are the time and effort the individual craftsman took to choose the same thickness spacers for each knife from the stock on hand and the general quality controls that the shop had in place at any given time. Again, I think you can make a general statement that spacer thickness consistancy improved as time went on.
I only have one soft data point for rivets phasing out and that is this 4-7:
![](http://www.fototime.com/5F68C91663136C1/orig.jpg)
Reportedly the original owner bought it right after he graduated from college in 1948. It is a "transition sheath" between rivets and no rivets: It still has rivets at the throat, but the large copper rivet holding the keeper has been replaced by the same small throat rivet and the keeper also goes through slots. I've seen only 3 or 4 of these and have one 3-7 sheath set up this way:
![](http://www.fototime.com/06129390B4B9397/orig.jpg)
At the time of this transition the throats did narrow and they remained about the same through the very early 50's. By the mid 50's they got down to the narrowest they would ever be.
![](http://www.fototime.com/B676DCEC208D831/orig.jpg)
Best,
_________________________
Ron Mathews RKS No. 4223
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#26080 - 03/13/10 11:55 PM
Re: This Old Randall
[Re: BoBlade]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 533
Loc: North Carolina
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Ron, I see your point about the availability of resources during war time, and that would explain the different thicknesses, more to function than symmetry. Thanks for the pictures of the transition sheaths. Interesting how the keeper goes thru the slot, then fastened by the small rivet. Perhaps the slots were to compensate for the smaller rivet? Larger rivet would hold more securely, and when they transitioned to the smaller rivet, passing the keeper thru the slot provided a bit more strength, and when combined with rivet, added up to the general strength of a larger rivet. I may be off track, but that seems to me to be what was going on. Thanks Ron, I have learned alot this weekend about the old Hunters.
_________________________
Sam Granade RKS Member #5700
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#26081 - 03/18/10 08:04 AM
Re: This Old Randall
[Re: BoBlade]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 2848
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I think throat rivets were around a bit longer, into 1949. Of course Heiser could have stopped producing them a bit earlier, but it took some time to use up stock. Unlikey it took two years to use existing stock for most models, so I believe they were produced a bit longer. I have seen several knives from the period that still had throat rivets, even a couple that were dated possibly into the new decade. One neat piece was a circa 1949 1-7, stag with fingergrips. The unique thing was the stag was not pinned!
I don't know if the switch from the harness rivet for the keeper to the smaller rivet as at the throat was anything more than expediency on Heiser's part.
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