I'm on the fence about it myself. I was thinking around 40/41... But I don't question the man.

My actual impression is of a requested later knife "made the way you used to make them, Bo."

That, or there was a Behring around then, too.

Tune,

John's knife has a stamp, which puts it post August 1939.I honestly don't know how it's possible to pin it down any closer than roughly 1940- 1942:


I agree with Joe about the timeframe of Bedink's knife:



Certainly not much older than that primarily because of the hilt which is not oval with a flat face.

Thanks Ron

I have had John's knife in my hand several times but it has been a few years. Ron is correct that it is probably from the pre-war period but possibly could be from a bit later also considering 8 December 1941 when the US declared war on Japan. I don't think Bo dropped his fancy spacer "Hunter" like a hot potato and was making them well into 1942 anyway. There were still requests for those knives after the war started and my guess is he accommodated those wanting one, at least initially. Or he could have just made up stock for Brown's Men's Store in Orlando, Brook's Brothers in New York, or VL & A in Chicago

You will note that on that particular knife it doesn't have the fanciest of spacer arrangements (a la Scagel) as we have seen on other earlier examples. It does appear to be white tail though, which would indicate early.

Joe,

Perhaps it is best to define what a Randall collector should call the "pre-war period". Given that we're talking Randalls, the "war period" begins with Bo's involvement with the Zacharias fighter on 06/15/1942. That knife and sheath are hard data points (i.e. evidence).



Note that by this time Clarence's sheath design had changed from the "pancake" style.......



.......to the more familiar "Model A" style which had the option of a stone pocket from May of 1940 (Gaddis pg 56). John's sheath is clearly a pancake style, so assuming the sheath is original to the knife, the knife is no later than 1940.

A closer look at the spacers on John's knife reveals that indeed this is a "fancy" stack. Not as fancy as those from '37 or '38, but clearly typical of the few knives we've seen from late '39 through early 1940:



I count maybe 10-12 and I may be missing a few due to the lack of photo clarity. I put my early Hunter in the same timeframe and it has roughly the same stack count:



You can "guess" that Bo had inquiries for fancy spacer type knives after the war started and he accommodated them, but there's no evidence (circumstantial or otherwise) to back this up. Gaddis mentions on page 71 that there were still a few requests for hunting knives after he started making fighting knives, but that these were turned down "because they didn't fit into the fabrication techniques developed for the leather handled Fighter and Stiletto".

Perhaps, but the blade grind appears a bit later than that when compared to those pictured in photo 43 in Gaddis of 1940 knives. That being said, the "fancy" spacer arrangements are a variable in my eyes. You recall the Henckles carver I sold you had around 18 spacers to include copper and brass, "fancier" than both yours and John's knives. Not as large in diameter as a knife with a hilt would have, but the quantity was there. So again, it is a variable to me, as are allot of things RMK.

Not sure how you get no later than 1940. Using the 16 June 1942 as the pre-post war line, that sheath could easily have been made until mid-1942. Unless I am misunderstanding your line of thinking, but it appears you are saying the Zach fighter was the impetus for the "A" style sheath? So from 1940 until mid 1942, what style of sheath did RMK's come in if not pancake style?

Brian's knife is post 16 June 1942 and it is in a pancake style sheath, so I don't think it is accurate to say all knives during that period were delivered in "A" style sheaths. Could have just been old habits for Moore when making the sheath for Brian's knife based on blade design. Who knows.

How is John's blade grind " a bit later" from the third knife from the bottom on page 50 / photo 43? (Can't wait for this one )

How can anyone argue that fancy spacer stacks are not variable. One only has to look at photo 41 page 44 in Gaddis book how they were reduced in stack count over time. The point being that John's stack does not preclude it from being '39 or '40 and more importantly seems to be typical of this period.

I get no later than mid 1940 because of the stone pocket being an option from that time. I am not saying that the Zach fighter was the impetus for the "A style" sheath. Have you ever seen a stone pocket on a Moore pancake sheath?

10-4 on Brian's sheath.

John's knife has little to no top bevel as does the knife you describe - third from the bottom - as I see it. In fact, all of the knives pictured seem to have some type of top bevel grind. John's knife doesn't look as "Scagelesque" ( for lack of a better term) as some of those earlier ones. we know blade grinds were all over the place, but those in the photo seem pretty consistent with the presence of top bevel grinds.

Not saying it couldn't be 39-40. Also not saying it couldn't be 41-42 either.

How does the stone pouch option make the knife 1940? You answer you own question by asking has anyone seen a pancake sheath with a stone pouch. I don't recall seeing one. Brian's knife is clearly late 1942 at the earliest and it has no stone pouch.



I do believe the Zach fighter was the impetus for the new style sheath as shown above. It is the first I have ever seen. Here is another without a stone pouch as was the original Zach sheath so it was not a given the fighters had stone pouches. This one is obviously later than Tune's knife, but not by much. A month or two?

Joe,

I don't know if you realize this or not, but you just agreed with me and debunked your own "the blade grind on John's knife) appears a bit later than that when compared to those pictured in photo 43 in Gaddis of 1940" when you say "John's knife has little to no top bevel as does the knife you describe - third from the bottom - as I see it".

If (1) Stone pouches were an option as of May, 1940 and (2) No one has seen a pancake sheath with one, a reasonable conclusion can be drawn that from 5/40 on the sheaths were "A Style".

I am going to revise my opinion of Brian's knife because of the sheath: I now think it's earlier than mid 40 and that the hilt was an exception to the oval / flat face norm at the time. Possibly because the top quillion needed to be high enough to ward off opposing knife blows and an oval hilt would be way too massive! An oval hilt that big would also push the knife away from the sheath way too far. I love these back and forth exchanges with you because it makes me think!

Some fighters did not have a stone pocket simply because it would hang up on other gear or obsticals. That was the buyers prerogative then as it is now. We've seen it many times over in sheaths from the VN war.