Waaa? No, I said the knives in the photo show distinct top bevel grinds whereas John's does not. I will repeat, blade grinds could be all over the place, all I am saying is there is no way to say that knife is unequivocally a 1939, 1940, 1941, or 1942 knife. Not to me, although I lean towards the later years of the spread. I will look at it again at some point. I think the only thing we know for sure is it wasn't made in 1938 and probably not 1939 since Bo received the stamp in the last quarter of that year. Prior to that any RMK logo was hand etched.

"A" style sheaths were a means of construction, different than the pancake style common for the period from many makers, and no a reasonable conclusion cannot be made that the construction of sheaths changed for some reason yet unknown or upon the offer of a stone pouch option. I think that is what you are saying, that with the offer of the stone pouch option, Moore completely changed his sheath offerings? I have never seen one and don't know anyone that has prior to the Zach fighter.

I believe the sheath construction changed when the fighter came about as shown in the photos of the original Zacharias fighter. The first example of an "A" style sheath I know of. Something a bit more "robust" than the pancake style.

The Zacharias fighter was the FIRST fighter of any type made according to Gaddis. Bo used hunter style blades in late '42 to make a handful of "Commando"models which all but subsided by early 1943. Consider he made 28 knives including the Zacharias knife and one dated 7 January 1943, approximately 6 months.

You can see my photos above of the original Zach and the later '42 early '43 knife that also shows the evolution of the blade grind, hilt shape, and handle. Brian's knife was made during this period. It has a slender blade and therefore stands to reason it would be offered in a pancake style sheath that hunter models came in, because that is what his blade is.

Here is a photo of what I would say is an mid 43 Commando and two more Zach evolution fighters from late '42 to early '43. Again, here they show the evolution of the hilt, blade grind, and handle. Also note that the keeper strap for the bottom knife has been relocated from it's original location or was in fact punched for the rivet by Moore and moved upon final assembly. This shows that the problem with the high keeper may have been addressed fairly early on if not by Moore then by an owner of the knife.

Joe,

The lighting in that photo is very poor, casting reflections and shadows that obscure the grind lines. I see top bevels on some but not others. As well, John's knife is missing some metal and there are no distinct grind lines at all. I never said you could unequivocally say a knife is from a given year based on grind lines. It was you who said John's knife appeared to be a bit later than the knives in that photo. What about the top bevel on Brian's knife:

Does this align it with the 1940 knives?

Yes, I'm saying I think the sheath construction changed with the offering of a stone pocket. Again, have you ever seen a pancake sheath with a stone pocket? No? Neither has anyone else! What type of sheath construction did those sheaths with a stone pocket have that were made between May of 1940 and 6/15/42?

Bo was 84 when Bob's book was published. In the book's preface on page X, Bob states "As I uncovered more original records with each visit, it became apparent that some of the often told stories about Bo's knives didn't match with what he had recorded at the time. Bo and I discussed this discrepancy on two or three occasions and always came to the same conclusion: we would consider what he had recorded at the time that it happened to be factual, not what he remember 40 years later"! Bottom line is that Bo's memory at the time the book was written was suspect. An event that should have stuck in his mind was the re-handle of his first knife, and that went missing. It would have been just as easy to forget one customer's request for a knife with a special guard. In 1940 or 1941, Bo had no idea how the grind on a fighting knife should differ from a hunting knife. At the same time I wouldn't be surprised if Brian's knife had a sharpened clip. You state unequivocally that "Brian's knife was made during this period (Late '42 / early '43). This statement flies in the face of your earlier claim. You're contradicting yourself here, Joe.

In any event, I am entitled to my opinion just as you are to yours.

Ron -

Not really sure where you are going with this to be honest. It is ok to have different opinions, but reaching with things like "one customer's request for a knife with a special guard", apparently according to your timeline prior even to the bombing of Pearl Harbor, and "I'm saying I think the sheath construction changed with the offering of a stone pocket", both points apparently to suit your explanation of what is a knife described clearly in Gaddis as being made most probably in the latter half of 1942 being made in 1940.

Wouldn't it make more sense that the sheath style changed along with the style and purpose of the knife being made? Just saying.

In any case, I have examined John's knife several times and don't argue it is "pre war" for the most part. Could it be from 1942? Possibly, but most likely it is a bit earlier.

I only made the statement relative to the photo of the 1940 knives in Gaddis because I saw a bit of change in the blade grind with the lack of a top bevel compared to those in the photo. I will reiterate again because it apparently is not getting through, blade grinds as you know were not real consistent for the most part during the early years so it is difficult to pin down. Just an observation on my part. That's all.

Brian's knife obviously has an exaggerated top bevel with the intent of it being a fighting knife. To be sharpened, which it is, it would almost necessitate that type of bevel. All "Commando" type knives are like this.

You and I will disagree on the sheath construction at this point until a pre-war knife in what we are calling an "A" sheath shows up with a field knife blade in it. The earliest one I have seen is the Zach sheath with NO stone pouch. I have given ample examples of the earliest Moore "A" sheaths known and all have fighting knives in them. Brian's knife is the only fighter I have seen in a Moore pancake style.

I don't know where I am contradicting myself but I guess you see it somewhere. As far as we know the impetus for Bo to make a fighting knife, any fighting knife, came in June 1942 when Lt. Zacharias came into the shop. Bo experimented during the latter half of 1942 with other blade styles i.e. Brian's knife, but by the time 1943 rolled around, it was pretty much a done deal. Remember, only 28 knives made during that first 6 month period. Although Bo did make a few "custom" order knives like Commando models later in the war, they were few and far between. Heck, he didn't even have one in the museum and made one post war with a peened tang to fill the void!

I am not gonna debate Bo's memory, what was or was not the topic of conversation between Gaddis and Bo, or what was deemed more important than something else when Gaddis had discussions with Bo about what information was to be included in his book. Writer's privilege.

I have really enjoyed this thread folks, and I mean that. When I posted the knife, I opened with the conundrum that it presented.

It has a spacer stack that is more consistent with pre-war knives and a hilt that is more consistent with 1943 and later knives. That remains true.

The only way to shed more light would be Bo's original journals and see an entry with a similar description to a man with the initials J.M.G.

Brian, I hope you are coming to Blade this year. I would love to see the knife in person.

Joe,

We could go back and forth on these points ad nauseam. We've beat things to death as usual. I'm going to leave this topic with a hoped for enlightenment in response to your statement:







Your denial of facts is a hurdle I face every time we have a disagreement over anything. Enough said on my part.

Dude, WTF?

What are you talking about Ron? Seriously? I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say.

That John's knife was not make within that 3-4 year span?

That Brian's knife was not made in the latter half of 1942?


What and whose "facts" am I in denial about?

Joe,

I agree with you that blade grinds could be all over the place during those early years, yet you have somehow unequivocally pinned down Brian's knife grind to "late '42 or early '43"!~ How is that possible? Why couldn't the grind be 1940 or 1941?

Guys, I encourage you to pull on this thread as long as you like....

BUT.....be nice. Period.

Got it, Tune!

Well stated Tune. Good information included in here can get lost and, in some cases not even read by forum members, when the "talk/opinions" turn into "debates"...nice or not.
Best, Capt. Chris