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#146018 - 07/28/16 04:42 PM Re: the REAL Finnish puukko.... **** [Re: desert.snake]
Lofty Offline
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Registered: 02/06/16
Posts: 656
Most all the northern European blades have a lot to recommend them...they are made to carve and skin and prepare food and survive. And they do it extremely well and for very little money compared to how they perform against most any knife in the world.

Helle is a good solid brand and I believe they machine forge their own laminate steels?....The Norwegian knives typically are very like the Swede knives with a lower grind. I had a Helle some time back, very intentionally crude Viking knife of basically straight cylindrical shape with slight taper front and back, and tang peened over an iron diamond bit of plate. No photos survive so lifted this photo of what appears to be a well used one....I was after just a good solid basic traditional knife. And got it. And truth be told, I rather miss its basic primitive knifeness, a quite authentically styled knife from 1000yrs ago.



Helle is well enough known and promoted that personally think them priced a bit high, but, that is really up to the buyer. My particular Viking was ground quite lopsided, and even curved to side (easily cured, see below) which is quite common according to seller and also reviews found online...it affects nothing, and if they never cared, then why should I? But a buyer accustomed to other customs/standards should be forewarned to avoid shock.

I no longer use any of the famous Swede/Norwegian laminates, simply because I prefer a stiffer blade which can handle some lateral stress without bending. The laminates are not meant for anything but cutting, in which they excel, with core hardness often 60-61 Rc. As a matter of fact, the laminates are popular up that way due to the fact an owner can tweak/specialize a blade for a certain chore, such as making a bowl.

But with the lower more abrupt grind, they were not quite the kitchen/woods chores, wood carver of personal dreams....had to find the higher grind plus reduced spine thickness/rhombic tommipuukko to get that (think more manueverable clip area of an American knife, except full length of blade), where less drag in deep cuts and blade able to be laid over further for more control of cuts, not every cut a maximum wood removal "power cut".

The rhombic cross-section puukko is actually, as far as I understand, a Kainuun Tommipuukko thing originally, going all the way back to Setti in the late 1800s, even though now percolated far and wide, and why I keep coming back to Marko and his named shop.

But for sure there are prettier actual puukkos made, and by longtime smiths of far more fame, and many even make their own "more perfect" version of a tommi with same typical crested pommel, blade cross section, various levels of finish, etc. And this thread not meant as a bash to great puukkoseppa who turn out highly regarded knives now seen as collectibles as much as users.

But Marko does everything as the shop always has, and you would need ask any other smith if they create blades same old way and what exactly IS that old way, or Rockwell each blade, or etc etc. Marko ignores anything not as originally done. For instance, folk may make a big deal out of a sheath liner being two-piece and completely enclosing blade, while Marko still does the half-liner as ever since the beginning, for reason of fidelity to tradition, weight, trimmer sheath, etc, either version will prevent an accidental stabbling as no realistic way to get point started off to side, and front bolster hard up against wood and handle in a snug leather hug. Often times these big deals are actually made only by buyers from other cultures, bringing own assumptions to bear, and broadcasting as gospel truth, an example being above mentioned Helle grind, where a Norwegian woodsman would say, "so?", or seeing a bit of excess glue on a bolster or slight uneven gap filled with glue as a deathly insult and fatal flaw in knifemaking skills.

There are other REAL puukko of all various traditions and regions, and I might find something more perfect than Marko's work. But would have a lot of trouble finding one made anymore traditionally or from a more direct lineage of a single classic and oft imitated style. This is why I like his work and keep coming back to him as a maker of REAL puukko.....oh.....and it cuts like blue blazes and holds an edge and guaranteed and etc. This is a field in which I will stick to what I know, and will leave to others the picking from such a rich heritage of high performance knives, whether for use, or today, as much as for collecting.

PS- for someone just wanting to try a puukko style blade of higher grind, suprising stoutness, good quality steel, very sharp point, and more "normal" flat side (still works great in angled cuts due to high thin grind), but not wanting spend a fortune or buy into some of the native styles and sheaths, there is a great cheap $15 utility knife which is a lot of fun.

The injection molded rubber/kraton handle kinda wiggles around and a gap around blade, but knife snaps firmly into sheath, can be tied inverted, the large hole in toe also a drain hole, and the clip can also double as belt loop. A good tool box or kitchen utility knife or front porch whittler or work knife. The sort of knife performance where the owner immediately regrets the cheap modern touches as unworthy of the blade.

The one I had was green and with a stainless blade, from another supplier (Ragweed Forge) who maybe no longer carries them. Kellam still carries same knife (whoever in Finland makes the thing for them or Ragweed, I do not recall now, so long ago), but unsure if Kellam has stainless, and it buried under their "other knives" catagory, and THEN under the "S Line" catagory. Good working (really good working) little cheap knife, no matter what. Somebody else stateside may also carry the knife, as well.





Edited by Lofty (07/29/16 01:42 PM)
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#146125 - 07/29/16 12:36 PM Re: the REAL Finnish puukko.... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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Registered: 02/06/16
Posts: 656
I did wish to add a final note on safety.

Which is what brought me to actual Suomi/Finnish/Ostrobothnian puukko as done by Kainuun rather than various other Scandinavian and Nordic knives so commonly encountered.

All of them are quite sharp, and can be brought to a sharpness well above most normally encountered knives, making even a box cutter blade seem rough. This blade design really cuts, even on cheapest versions, the high quality, clean, fine grained steels they use in that part of the world takes the keenest edge, even on the cheapies.

I have cut myself quite badly with several, and not with push cuts , especially with older factory slickly wooden handled versions, the handle squirting or simply falling through inattentive fingertips, the blade a falling razor with mass. And note most modern makes now incorporate more ergo handles with guards, even those plastic handled domestic consumption versions such as Morakniv sold at every convenience store counter in Scandinavia where they are a universal disposable tool.

But my thoughts were, "surely the old classic pre-factory versions had to have had more going for them in safety, or the type would not have survived minus a guard for so long? That, or the northern European countries were famous for 1000yrs of sliced tendons."

It took some looking, as many are not made traditionally, no matter the claim, and as much style and art pieces as anything. The iconic Hackman puukko designed by Finnish design sculptor Wirkalla well known in this country from the 1970s, or more recent Spyderco designs by Tuominen, both fixed blade and folders, come to mind, ....this particular folder interesting as Tuominen designed the knife for Spyderco and then made this handmade version for a customer who thought the Spyderco did not do justice to the design. But I would still be afraid to use it much.












But in this Kainuun Tommi style, I found that simple traditional puukko which is safe and secure in handling, for too many reasons to list (again) here. Various design elements keep hand instinctively located further back with no tendency for hand to shift forward or for knife to slip down when held point up, or even in push cuts (although obviously not the ideal knife for overhead stab into a tree stump), and for extra grippyness of any, there is always the stacked birchbark handle, which is quite tennis-shoe-non-skid. This linked German language video shows what I cannot write, which is how the knife handles in a user's hand, only pity the reviewer did not realize the knife out of camera view so much of time, but still, a viewer can see it a very fine and safe all purpose working knife that handles and cuts just great, and that he is in absolutely no danger of cutting himself all through a video filled with rather absentminded handling. This video of same sized knife as the one I photographed, the 100mm Moose (skinner).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6s25R0b_mI


If there is any single reason why I went this route, the handle of this particular style would be it. Otherwise, one might be advised to go for a more modern handle style, and even Marko replicates a finger rest version and guarded version introduced by Kainuun in the 1960s-1970s due to demand. Considering those designs won prizes at the time, the perceived need for such among the general populace accustomed to most other unsafe factory designs might be assumed, and this change swept through all large scale makers with time.

But with this version, I can have that classic lean, spare, puukko and not be in constant danger of maiming hand or requiring stitches. And it has been a near thing with other varieties, both other regional Finnish puukko, and Scadinavian/Nordic knivär.


Edited by Lofty (07/29/16 10:26 PM)
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#146126 - 07/29/16 01:42 PM Re: the REAL Finnish puukko.... [Re: Lofty]
pappy19 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 7443
Loc: Garden Valley, Idaho
That's always been the deterrent for me to buy and use a Pukko type knife, was the lack of a hilt or finger groves.


Edited by pappy19 (07/29/16 01:43 PM)
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#146133 - 07/29/16 03:52 PM Re: the REAL Finnish puukko.... [Re: pappy19]
desert.snake Online
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Registered: 09/25/13
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Puukko - a working knife. He does not need guard.
Although the guards were always on the Finnish knife type
scouts and hunters.
But the vast majority - without guard, including combat knives.
This Finnish achievements, their tradition as choil to Randall smile

with guard







fighting knife



without guard




















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#146135 - 07/29/16 04:02 PM Re: the REAL Finnish puukko.... [Re: desert.snake]
desert.snake Online
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For fine work do not need a guard on knife - reduced mobility blades in hands.
Here Finnish soldiers make stalk for axes.


Attachments
------post-775-0-23686400-1364062651.jpg


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#146150 - 07/29/16 06:11 PM Re: the REAL Finnish puukko.... [Re: pappy19]
Lofty Offline
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Registered: 02/06/16
Posts: 656
Originally Posted By: pappy19
That's always been the deterrent for me to buy and use a Pukko type knife, was the lack of a hilt or finger groves.


A good friend of mine, Nam vet, has had a pinky which will not close since he was a teenager, thanks to hand slipping on some unknown Scandinavian knife. Anecdotally, anyone from Finland will tell you that they are not Scandinavian. One need only look at the language as written (puukko vs knivar, for instance) in order to see they are not Dane/Swede/Norse, but neither are they Rus....they are different.

The young boy scout photo posted by DS is telling, the child training to use the heel of palm on the pommel, and knife with guard until he learns, where normally the adult versions did formerly ditch the guard, and this true across all of northern europe until this last century.

Also, again, one can see in the DS photos that some traditional regional styles are totally different from the knives of the Kainuu region, most of those pictured of Kuahava style and make, (perhaps one Tommi style on most modern soldier shot), mostly shop produced, (I think several of Kankaanpaa make by Altti's dad) large and small, if not a factory, much like typical Rapala fillet knives which came from same area at US importer request of design, and geared ONLY for pull cuts and a slippery slide down to edge on some styles for those of other cultures accustomed to also pushing with hand wrapped around handle.

I have noticed with this style Tommi that when held where knife feels "right" in hand, that the pommel is already braced against heel of palm, and the pommel "crest" as much a reduction of pommel edge to aid in palm getting behind the knife....it has little touches like that, built in, whether on the smaller or larger knives.

But, Pappy, you are not alone and historically, the most ordered Kainuun knife from USA buyers has been the one with a guard (and I think an American retail request as for origin), and Marko makes the several decade old Teho version with domestic market finger rest....there are knives with both, and then others as well.....cannot dig up at moment a photo of one with both, but the Granberg knife has the dip, while several large ones on table have the guard, and the tableful was all a shipment to a US retailer.

BUT, will note that once knives get here, in checking retailers, the ones which move right away are the traditional, while the "better" ones (with guards) as far as maybe their retail strategy seems to show, (and dyed and lacquered) are the ones which take a while to move, and the next fastest to move are the Teho/finger rest. Just going by own looking at what was out there and what was sold out.

Personally, I find the oiled (not lacquered) fancy birch or raita (burled goat willow root) handles seem perfectly fine for traction, the stacked birchbark is excellent.

Just wood-finish trivia, the oil finish Marko uses is a tung oil which is then waxed, and keep in mind arctic birch quite water resistant, and main worry only to keep knife from looking nasty, the dyes and lacquers as much a cosmetic thing. Tung oil can be reapplied at home as it wears, and easily stripped with mineral spirits if desired. Also, both fancy arctic birch and raita are prone to fissures, the raita far worse, and such is considered normal.





Just noticed out of that table full ordered by a USA retailer, not one of the knives a traditional Tommi. The black sheath with solid red front panel reserved for the totally traditional knife. I hate it when retailers know what I want better than I do.


Edited by Lofty (07/30/16 04:54 AM)
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#146593 - 08/04/16 04:33 PM Re: the REAL Finnish puukko.... [Re: Lofty]
desert.snake Online
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Registered: 09/25/13
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Thank you Lofty!
Very nice, Marco well done smile

I have a knife, but he did not clean puukko.
This more fantasy on the theme of Finnish knives.
The Finns have never made such a thick shank))

I understand now construction of Lappish knives - thick handle is very convenient for planing wood.





































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#146611 - 08/04/16 09:09 PM Re: the REAL Finnish puukko.... [Re: desert.snake]
Lofty Offline
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Registered: 02/06/16
Posts: 656
wow! talk about born to carve. I bet the birch bark cushy grippy handle is very secure. What is the material at front and back of handle. I love that sheath, too.....born to work.
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#146628 - 08/05/16 02:21 AM Re: the REAL Finnish puukko.... [Re: Lofty]
desert.snake Online
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Loc: the other side of the earth
Lofty, this brass caps, inside the cap birtch wood.
In the vast majority of Finnish knives caps have this design.
after the cap put one layer of the skin and birch bark.

Steel 440B. I was very surprised when I learned that
this originally 440B and 440C steel designed
was for heat-resistant bearings for the oil industry smile


Attachments
------finn knife caps.jpg


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#146710 - 08/05/16 07:18 PM Re: the REAL Finnish puukko.... [Re: desert.snake]
Lofty Offline
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Registered: 02/06/16
Posts: 656
I pretty much call the style the Kauhava style, with horsehead, or without.

Will point out the little Lap knife of mine has a blade never intended for the Kauhava style, but was produced by one of the elder Kauhava master smiths, Altti Kankaanpää.

He shows up in a youtube video of several famous puukkoseppa working on a giant display Kauhava style puukko for the museum. Altti was almost 80yrs old when this still was taken at same time as the video put together showing them all building the giant Kauhava puukko, he is the one with ball cap and black jacket. They were using the giant calipers ratioed to small calipers used to measure a small normal puukko.






Here is a great older video (old film clip, actually) showing the semi-production Kauhava puukko being made, start to finish, in 14mins. These shops were formerly all over the region, puukko often marked with war of independence dates, Winter War dates, or with the flag of Finlandia. Generally for the tourist trade which came with the railroad, and never stopped.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsXmyKhIoAI

It is a truly great video of a great old smith making the puukko as they had been since the 1800s, again, in his very old shop established by his grandfather, very primitive production machinery designed to take advantage of power sources past human powered, again, much of this came with the railroad.


Edited by Lofty (08/05/16 09:55 PM)
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