They were a little "squatty" back then

There was also a little polishing resin still in the letters that makes them look Diff. as well.

WWII Hunters - an update:

Several years ago I picked up what I thought may have been a pre-war forging that was handled during WWII. It had a small double cut choil, a two stage blade upsweep and a Randall stamp almost half way out from the hilt:




There was no mention or photos of such a grind in any publication, although a knife owned by George Torres in Hunt's first book bore a vague resemblance. I've been collecting old Randalls long enough to know that what may generally assumed to be true at any given time is subject to change if more facts are brought to light. Last Friday at Blade another piece of the WWII Hunter puzzle walked up to Joe and my table. It is the bottom knife in this photo (The top knife is what I had thought was a pre-war forging).



They are similar enough for me to call them a different WWII Hunter "species"! The only published photo of a documented WWII Hunter comes from Bob Gaddis' book. Two of my WWII Hunters allign exactly with Bob's photo: Rudimentary choil and a "Scagelesque" grind:




Bob's photo:




So, they question arises: Which "species" came first, or were they made in parallel? The 6" Heiser sheaths are virtually identical, so doesn't help us. The double cut choil doesn't help us a George also owns a WWII Hunter with a double cut choil and an otherwise conventional Model 3 grind:



Looking at all four knives, the two with the two stage upsweep have "rougher" workmanship. Here is an example: The sides of the hilts on both were ground after they were soldered to the blade possibly indicating an earlier history:



As well, both hilts are "tilted forward" similar to many pre-war knives.

So............I'm now thinking the first WWII Hunters (From November '43) had a two stage upsweep and a double cut choil. Shortly thereafter this species died out and was replaced by the double choil and the Scagelesque grind like George's knife). Then came the rudimentary choil and the Scagelesque grind (as pictured in Gaddis' book) and then prior to the war ending you had the conventional (single large choil) post war Model 3 grind with the two exceptions they were made from 3/16" stock and had a brass nut and washer.

Please feel free to ask questions, poke holes or come up with your own scenarios. None of this is set in concrete and I may have an entirely different opinion next week

Best,

Ron,
as someone who doesn't own a Randall anywhere near that old, I really enjoy seeing
them and watching this "detective" story unfold.
Thanks!
Your theory makes sense, based on the rougher workmanship of the first two knives.
Tony

Ron:

Best post in a while. Since only two of these have surfaced it makes it even more interesting. Do you think they could have originally been made as fighters with a double hilt and then had the top ground down and the knives sold as a hunter?
They look so different from the other end of war hunters. Maybe some other photos will surface.

Mike Webb
RKS #4107

It was very interesting, seeing this knife, as well of as all of you at the "Blade" show. I am enjoying the "theories" a great deal. Sometimes...They're just different because they're just different, but your ideas are certainly, at the very least, valid Ronnie! I agree with Mike: First good "oldies" post in a while...and submitted, by the way, "by" an oldie!
Best, Capt. Chris

There all fake!!!! send them to me Ron and I'll take care of them.

Tony: Thanks!

Mike: Thanks also. I think these were originally made as Hunters. Reasons being (1) The smaller one I picked up a couple of years ago is only 5 1/2" long. Too short to really function as a fighter. (2)I'm pretty sure the hilts started off as double, but the top quillion was cut down. Some WWII Hunters had a much larger top quillion protrusion than others. (3) If they were originally fighters the clip would have been sharpened. There is no indication on these two knives that the clip had been subsequently rounded off.

I'm hoping that more of these knives will surface in the future. We'll see.......

Cap: Thanks! You know you have to also assign yourself an "oldie" label if you want to pin one on me

Bernie: Speaking of fake, you know that early 50's finger groove leather 1-8 you picked up at the show? I hate to be the bearer of ill tidings, but.......

Best,

I think the stepped choil is just a throw back to what Bo had been doing pre-war and prior to making fighters. In other words, when he made the decision to offer Hunter’s during the war, he ground the blades in similar fashion to what he had been doing prior to the war with some changes that reflect a bit of a early fighter influence. Hence the occasional comparison to a Commando grind. The difference is there weren't too many if any made with pre-war style fancy handles or spacers during war time, almost solely (sorry) leather, so no need for the fancier stepped choil any longer. The change Ron describes in the photo out of Gaddis is mid-1944, after Bill Platts had been at the shop for awhile. Arriving in Jan 1944, Platts quickly achieved some standardization in blade grinds and lengths.

Torres’ knife could be a couple of things. It got a bit messed up and they choil was enlarged beyond the norm for the time. It is a bit later than the two of Ron’s and is on the way to the standard design depicted in the catalog photo, or it could even be after the catalog photo. A different guy ground this one and the other and wanted to 'dress them up' a bit. Who knows? There just isn’t a way to determine exactly what went on each day 66 years ago in a small shop in what was then nowhere Florida. I don’t think it is any great design plan, just an evolution towards consistency.

The two in Ron’s photo probably represent some earlier leather handled Hunter’s offered during the war period. Gaddis states the first had blades in the Scagle style as depicted in itme #9 in the catalog pictured on page 59 of his book. Ron has one or two of these I believe in Moore sheaths. It would stand to reason that the Heiser sheathed knives were a tad later, possibly no more than a mont or two. I don't think there was a landslide of Hunter orders coming through the door, so the delivery of Hunter's in Heiser sheaths probably happened rather quickly.

Thanks, Joe! Makes a lot of sense.

Best,