#26634 - 09/27/07 11:19 PM
Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 868
Loc: Montana
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A couple of folks have recently asked if I had photos of any additional examples of Jimmy Stockman made RMK sheaths from the early 1960's (1960/1961) other than the one shown on page #64 of our book... For those of you that don't have a copy of our book yet, here is an example of a Stockman sheath on ebay... And if wonders never cease, I spoke with a friend today that believes he may have a Stockman 'C' model sheath as well...more on that one later... If you guys have any others, I'm sure we'd like to see them so feel free to add photos or comments to this thread for discussion 
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#26635 - 09/28/07 09:18 AM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: Sheldon_Wickersham]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 2850
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FLAG!! The information given about the sheaths in the post above is incorrect. Both the sheaths in the book and in the auction listed are NOT Stockman sheaths. I have never seen a Stockman sheath that I knew was a Stockman sheath marked with the RMK stamp. Never, and I believe the two sheaths mentioned are in fact Johnson sheaths. Stockman's work was lacking in comparison to Johnson's and Heiser's often using inferior quality leather, and irregular cutting of the initial leather pattern to the crooked stitching is characteristic of every example I have seen. Somewhat crude in comparison to other Randall sheath makers. To promote sheaths with the horizontal logo as Stockman's work is disingenuous and purely supposition, and incorrect at that. Stockman made maybe a few hundred sheaths at best, probably because his work just wasn't that good and he was only used as a stop gap measure. The photos posted show a Stockman sheath - unmarked - between two Heiser sheaths. It is pretty evident the "cheap" look in camparison to the Heisers. I think I have some similar photos of another Stockman sheath if I can find them.  Notice the irregular leather cuts and stitching.
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#26637 - 09/28/07 10:36 AM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: crutchtip]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 868
Loc: Montana
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Joe, you wrote "The information given about the sheaths in the post above is incorrect..." To which I can only respond with 'Ha, so sayeth you...'  I think our difference of opinion, btw, comes from your steadfast belief that only crudely made unmarked sheaths are 'Stockman' versions...and until you get past that, realizing that Jimmy Stockman was a skilled craftsman and established local harness & saddle maker of note in the Orlando area (with his shop still backlogged and running today) then we'll continue to disagree... That said, based on numerous well-made brown button sheath examples with & without (slightly larger than normal) model indication stamps and horizontal RMK 'football' sheath stamps - sheaths known to predate Maurice Johnson's association with RMK; well-made sheaths known to have been made by someone other than the H.H. Heiser company; sheaths made well after Clarence Moore had stepped out of the picture...then I would say that Mr. Stockman did a pretty fine job with his sheaths... Being that it's oft been referenced in the past (by you, amongst others) that several individuals were making trial examples and 'one-off' models of various sheath types for RMK during the late 1950's & early 1960's period...then you may want to consider that someone other than Jimmy Stockman built those crudely made, unmarked, odd-ball sheaths (just a thought)... FWIW, for those just learning here, I'm basing my statement on the thinner type reddish 'saddle leather' used; the rounded butterfly beltloop; and the stitching method employed...these characteristics are common to almost all Stockman sheaths from the period, whether RMK logo stamped or not... As always, your comments are welcome Joe, but in this case, as in the past, we'll have to disagree - again... p.s. How ya doing on producing that 'proof' that M. Johson was making sheaths for RMK back in 1961? We've been hearing about it for years now; I for one would sure like to see it...  p.p.s. A story unto itself - after seeing photos of the sheath, the 'C' model sheath mentioned in the initial post; while attributed to have been made by 'someone other than Heiser or Johnson', is in my opinion a Johnson sheath...
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#26638 - 09/28/07 11:28 AM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: Sheldon_Wickersham]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 2850
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Joe, you wrote "The information given about the sheaths in the post above is incorrect..." To which I can only respond with 'Ha, so sayeth you...'
I think our difference of opinion, btw, comes from your steadfast belief that only crudely made unmarked sheaths are 'Stockman' versions...and until you get past that, realizing that Jimmy Stockman was a skilled craftsman and established local harness & saddle maker of note in the Orlando area (with his shop still backlogged and running today) then we'll continue to disagree...
Yes, so sayeth me. I'll net it out for you. With all due respect, that is probably because Sheldon I have examined several thousand times more vintage knives/sheaths than you have. An infintesmial amount of those with sheaths from the period are neither Heiser or Johnson. So, until "you get past that", you bet will will disagree. EVERY Stockman sheath I have seen is as stated of much less quality than either a Heiser or Johnson of the period. They are all UNMARKED in i.e. sans logo stamp. Is there a Stockman sheath out there that is stamped? Possible but not probable. I don't think the RMK stamp was used until a true sheathmaker was found, i.e. Johnson.
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That said, based on numerous well-made brown button sheath examples with & without (slightly larger than normal) model indication stamps and horizontal RMK 'football' sheath stamps - sheaths known to predate Maurice Johnson's association with RMK; well-made sheaths known to have been made by someone other than the H.H. Heiser company; sheaths made well after Clarence Moore had stepped out of the picture...then I would say that Mr. Stockman did a pretty fine job with his sheaths...
There are no "well made sheath examples" by Stockman, relatively speaking. The are of inferior quality to other makers, period. The leather, craftmanship, and stitching is not up to par to the other makers.
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Being that it's oft been referenced in the past (by you, amongst others) that several individuals were making trial examples and 'one-off' models of various sheath types for RMK during the late 1950's & early 1960's period...then you may want to consider that someone other than Jimmy Stockman built those crudely made, unmarked, odd-ball sheaths (just a thought)...
Sure, there may be a couple of odd balls floating around, but if you know what you are looking at you can pick a Stockman out relatively easily by the common traits.
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FWIW, for those just learning here, I'm basing my statement on the thinner type reddish 'saddle leather' used; the rounded butterfly beltloop; and the stitching method employed...these characteristics are common to almost all Stockman sheaths from the period, whether RMK logo stamped or not...
FWIW, for those just learning here, don't believe everything you read. Tell me how both the sheath referenced in your book and the one up for auction have Stockman characteristics? The photos I posted are without a doubt a Stockman, the sheaths you reference aren't even close. Not a little bit.
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As always, your comments are welcome Joe, but in this case, as in the past, we'll have to disagree - again...
p.s. How ya doing on producing that 'proof' that M. Johson was making sheaths for RMK back in 1961? We've been hearing about it for years now; I for one would sure like to see it...
Yeah, unfortunately you probably never will. My hands are tied on this one.
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p.p.s. A story unto itself - after seeing photos of the sheath, the 'C' model sheath mentioned in the initial post; while attributed to have been made by 'someone other than Heiser or Johnson', is in my opinion a Johnson sheath...
Well no sh!t !! Imagine that ! Like with the other sheaths referenced in this discussion, dont' try to make something it isn't.
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#26640 - 09/28/07 01:45 PM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: BoBlade]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 2850
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I am gonna go out on a limb here and throw caution to the wind. It is a Stockman?
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#26641 - 09/28/07 02:57 PM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: crutchtip]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 868
Loc: Montana
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Is there a Stockman sheath out there that is stamped?
Absolutely, the Model #1-8 sheath in the eBay ad referenced above is an example...
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There are no "well made sheath examples" by Stockman, relatively speaking. The are of inferior quality to other makers, period.
I would say that you're splitting hairs again Joe...agreed, the sheath in the eBay ad isn't as nicely finished as an H.H. Heiser sheath, but it's no slouch either...
For those just tuning in...Joe and I have been having this 'disagreement' for the last several years...first, 'Jim Stockman' didn't exist; then, when shown where Gaddis had referenced him several times, he didn't count. After I contacted Bob Stockman, Jim's son, and he stated that his father had made sheaths for "Mr. Randall" for several years, possibly three or four, then Joe said he only made 'special order' and custom sheaths on a limited basis...
Contacting Bob Stockman again, he told me that "Mr. Randall used to bring sheaths by my fathers shop, sheaths made by some guy up in Colorado; my dad would spilt the sheaths apart and make templates from those sheaths for the ones he made for Mr. Randall"...then Joe's story changed to include 'maybe a few dozen sheaths'...now we're up to several hundred... 
The bottom line here is, agreeing with Joe now, Jim Stockman probably did only make a few hundred sheaths, that most of those were 'one-offs', and that the quality is likely not as good as Heiser or Johnson...that much I think we can agree on.
As to when the RMK sheath stamp came into use - Based on the number of stamped 'Stockman' style sheaths I've seen, I believe the stamp was first used in 1961, well in the 'Stockman era', and just before Maurice Johnson came into play...
So, for Joe to say that I'm wrong is ok (although I think we both know that I'm not), but he'll have to offer up some proof for his argument to be anything more that a false premise based on a flawed theory...
That said, I really don't think we're that far apart here, but until I see something concrete that counters what I've been told, seen, held, and owned...I ain't buyin' it 
Ron, you know Bob Gaddis fairly well, why don't cha ask him to revisit the shop records and see if he can't come up with a purchase date for the sheath stamp?
Anyhoo, Joe, thanks again for making the forum less, how did you put it, "lame"...always a pleasure.
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#26642 - 09/28/07 03:08 PM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: Sheldon_Wickersham]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 04/22/07
Posts: 1387
Loc: United States
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I'm only posting my knife for discussions not fights. Please don't "KILL" the messenger here. Model 3-6 blade etched dated 1961 BB JRB sheath. Burnie 
Edited by Burnie (09/28/07 03:09 PM)
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Burnie Austin
RKS #5489
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#26643 - 09/28/07 03:10 PM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: Burnie]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 04/22/07
Posts: 1387
Loc: United States
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Blade etching 
Edited by Burnie (09/28/07 03:11 PM)
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Burnie Austin
RKS #5489
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